Are PCs expected to beat skill challenges?

[FireLance]

Just looking at the additional skill challenge provided for Keep on the Shadowfell, it seems like the PCs only have a slim chance of beating it.

[SBLOCK]The primary skills for the challenge are Arcana (DC 22) and Religion (DC 22) and the PCs have to accumulate 8 successes before they get 4 failures. The character with the best chance of succeeding on the skill checks will only have a modifier of +10 to each by level 3, unless there are other ways to boost skill checks in the adventure. This means that the character only has a 45% chance of success for each skill check, and is thus most likely to score fewer successes than failures. Running the numbers, the chance of him actually succeeding is 6.1%, while the chance of failure is 93.9%.[/SBLOCK]Of course, this assumes that 1 successful skill check = 1 success, and a failed skill check = 1 failure. I suppose it is possible that you only get 1 failure if you fail the skill check by 5 or more, or you normally get 2 successes for a successful skill check, but if you are willing to score only 1 success, you can lower the DC by 5.

Otherwise, attempting skill challenges seems pointless for the PCs, at least in this specific case.

 

[Blackeagle]

Well, it is described as a level 6 skill challenge. I'm not surprised that 3rd level characters (by that point in the adventure) would have a hard time beating it.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

The challenge looks awfully difficult. I haven't seen the PC stats for KotS, but the fact alone that it is a level 6 challenge indicates to me it would be very hard. The PCs are level 3 at best at that point!

I generally would think you should be able to beat a skill challenge, this one doesn't look like one you'd do.

Edit:
The question is? Why offer a level 6 challenge instead of a level 3 challenge?

 

[Blackeagle]

The question is? Why offer a level 6 challenge instead of a level 3 challenge?

Well, the encounter is supposed to be balanced without the skill challenge (the skill challenge is an extra, after all). If the skill challenge was easily achievable it would make the encounter easier.

 

[FireLance]

Well, it is described as a level 6 skill challenge. I'm not surprised that 3rd level characters (by that point in the adventure) would have a hard time beating it.

Well, I re-ran the numbers giving the skill checks an additional +3 bonus to simulate the effects of +2 from levels and +1 from an ability score increase, for a 60% chance of success on the skill check. The 6th-level character fails about 70% of the time and succeeds about 30% of the time. The odds are better, but he is still more than twice as likely to fail than to succeed. And remember, these are the odds for the character that is best suited to take on the challenge. Characters who are untrained in the primary skills or who have lower ability score modifiers will fare even worse.

 

[FadedC]

Trying to pick up a book and figure out an ancient evil ritual in the middle of combat should be really difficult. I think it's mostly just there so players can try it if they really want to....maybe there's somebody with insane arcane skill in a non pregen group.

People always say you shouldn't tell the players no, you should just make it really hard. Well this is really hard.

 

[Green Knight]

Let's see...

[sblock]The necessary skills are Arcana [DC 22], Religion [DC 22], and Heal [DC 18] (Endurance isn't used to complete it, just help anyone who fails Arcana or Religion by taking the hit for them). By third level, the following characters will have these bonuses:

ARCANA
+6 Half-Elf Cleric
+10 Human Wizard
+10 Tiefling Warlord

RELIGION
+6 Half-Elf Cleric
+6 Dragonborn Paladin
+10 Human Wizard

HEAL
+9 Half-Elf Cleric
+7 Dragonborn Paladin

So the Human Wizard and Tiefling Warlord need to roll 12+ for the Arcana check, the Human Wizard needs to roll 12+ on the Religion check, while the Half-Elf Cleric needs to roll 9+ on the Heal check.[/sblock]

 

[SnakeNuts]

Can I be cheeky and piggy-back a question on this thread:

(If it's already been answered I apologise, but I haven't got the time right now to search through the forum)

How do people think a Skill Challenge should be presented to the players? All I've read right now has left me a bit confused: Do I give them all the options when the skill challenge starts? i.e. I tell them how many successes they need and what skills they need to use, or do I just say there is a skill challenge here and go try your skills?

Personally I'm a bit loath to tell them too much detail because I like to hide as much of the number crunching from the players whilst in-game, but I also don't want them to stand around and scratch their heads, especially this being such a new concept.

 

[VannATLC]

The creature they avoid fighting is probably worth the attempt.

 

[functionciccio]

How do people think a Skill Challenge should be presented to the players? All I've read right now has left me a bit confused: Do I give them all the options when the skill challenge starts? i.e. I tell them how many successes they need and what skills they need to use, or do I just say there is a skill challenge here and go try your skills?

This is exactly what puzzles me...
It seems like the DM has to tell the players the skills involved in the challenge, because I think it's quite impossile for them to figure out that they can use, for example, Heal.

How do you (others DMs out there) present a skill challenge like this?