Are people still mad about . . .

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Wow. Great responses! Thanks!

I agree that I wouldn't mind getting some old TSR stuff in PDF format, especially when I started my Dark Sun campaign a while back! That would have been cool.

I really do see 4E as being a different game than 3E. I also see that it didn't replace it. However, it's a tough call for a company to do something new and not support the old anymore. So, no support for 3E is a tough call. Further, putting out something with a very different style than all previous versions of 3E was a tough call, I would think. They either had good market data or a feeling of which way to go, if indeed 4E is a success.

I like 4E better than 3E but don't think less of 3E. But, with where I am at in my life and the style of game I like to play, 4E better fits my style. So, I am happy and for more 4E style stuff.

I don't like "with all due respect" either and try to cut it out of my speech and writing. As someone else said, just say it rather than prefacing it.

I also don't like it when I can't have a good conversation about any system with others because the medium of the internet doesn't let me convey all that I mean with only words.

But, I do like ENWorld and I keep coming back to see what everyone thinks as well as get good ideas!



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Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)
I will say that the phrase, "With all due respect"...are pet peeves of mine that do tend to get me really irritated.

The reason is, whenever someone says, "With all due respect...", you can guarantee that whatever they say next won't be with due respect. Personally, I see all such phrases as an attempt at self-deception, and believe that they actually make any statements that you make more insulting than if they were left off.

If it is a pet peeve of yours, then by definition you cannot guarantee that whatever they say next won't be with due respect. Because, as you admit, it's a pet peeve of yours, not everyone. If everyone always meant it that way, then few would ever use it, it wouldn't be known as a pet peeve but as a universally known rude phrase, and it would probably be against the rules here.

Some people actually mean due respect when they say that phrase. Your assumption that no people mean it is more a reflection of it being a pet peeve of yours. You're sensitive to the phrase, and take it as a negative. But, that sensitivity does not guarantee the intent of the speaker is what you assume it is. Your assumption may well be false. You don't really know what the speaker actually means when they use that phrase.

I find, if I don't know the speaker's intent, that it is best to assume a positive or neutral interpretation, rather than assuming a negative one. It helps communication.

Your writing reads better and is less condescending and is less personal if it just begins with: "I think you took it more personally than intended."

To you. To me, his statement didn't look in any way condescending. It looked to me like he was trying to say "I respect your opinion as my fellow peer, and hope you will listen to my differing opinion with the same level of respect". I don't think it's fair to apply your pet peeve to what others say. It's your issue. That's what makes it a "pet" peeve. It's a personal vexation, not a universal one.

The Ghost

Another thing that bugged me. I liked the humor behind it all. These are real people working on the game, not corporate robots. They never anticipated that too many gamers take their fun so seriously and would rage against the machine so fiercely. Or they did anticipate it and decided it would be fun to poke the bear.

Yeah, the marketing was a big turnoff for me. I still cringe every time I think about the Gnome is a Monster, Rawr! video.

Theo R Cwithin

I cast "Baconstorm!"
AI try to think of us as buddies chatting around a table. But then someone takes something I said as if I just killed their dog.
Good point. I wish people would remember this. Brings to mind that old public service announcement:

Croaky the Bugbear says:
"Remember kids: every time you post in an edition war thread, I kill a puppy!"
Things that have bugged me:

Losing access to PDFs of older material still bothers me a lot. I've never played the classic modules, and would like to have copies of them to read through-- and even play when I take another shot at older editions.

The whole GSL episode annoyed me at the time, but doesn't so much now.



First Post
Don't forget that, in earlier editions, the beholder was apparently a wuss. Until he finally became a solo monster. :lol:
Which was especially irritating since he was really nerfed for 4e. Yeah looking back we overreacted to the marketing but at the time I remember feeling that it was patronising and arrogant.

The only gripes I still feel are the lack of TSR PDFs and the death of Planescape.


If it is a pet peeve of yours, then by definition you cannot guarantee that whatever they say next won't be with due respect.

That doesn't logically follow. Just because something particularly peeves me, doesn't mean that the thing that peeves me isn't annoying. It only means that my responce to it is sharper or stronger than average. I knew someone who was particularly peeved by people not returning shopping carts to the stalls and instead leaving them in random parking places. It's not my pet peeve. I easily control my anger or discontent in such situations. He however does not.

By admitting it is a pet peeve, I'm only admitting that I take it more seriously than I probably ought to. However, just as my friend is right that its usually a sign of being lazy and disrespectful to other shoppers when you don't walk the 5 yards to the shopping cart stall, so it is that I am right that the motivating factor behind qualifiers like, "I don't mean to be rude..." or "With all due respect..." is to give yourself permission to be rude or disrespectful. We say thing likes, "I don't mean to be rude...", precisely because we know we are going to be rude. If we didn't mean to be rude, either we'd actually not say the thing we claim we don't want to say, or else we'd be oblivious to potential offense and not qualify our next statement.

"If everyone always meant it that way, then few would ever use it..."

This also doesn't follow. The implication of your statement is that humans are noble actors that never intentionally mean to be rude. Any cross section of experience with humanity indicates that they frequently don't consider the feelings of others, that they frequently attempt to dominate and hurt others, but that very few people like to admit that this is what they are doing even to themselves. So phrases like, "With all due respect...", however they might have gotten started, continue to be in parlance because they let you give yourself permission to be rude, while passive-aggressively signaling to the group that you are justified in the rudeness you know are about to engage in. wouldn't be known as a pet peeve but as a universally known rude phrase, and it would probably be against the rules here.

Again, this doesn't follow. Humanity is not fully self-conscious. Plenty of things occur which aren't understood by everyone who observes them. Much time can pass before people really start thinking about what they are saying, and negative thought and speech patterns can continue even when they have been roundly discredited or criticized. The idea that we are likely to achieve universal agreement on anything seems highly suspect to me.

However, I refer you first to the urban dictionary entry on the phrase:

Urban Dictionary: with all due respect

And secondly, to the canon of JRR Tolkien, who was fond of having his characters say things of this sort whenever they were really going to put their foot in their mouth. In particular, pay attention to Bilbo's dialogue with Gandalf at the beginning of the Hobbit where Gandalf calls him on it, and Sam's dialogue with Faramir that begins, "I don't mean to put myself foward..."

Some people actually mean due respect when they say that phrase.

I've seen no examples of that. The most charitable interpretation I can give the phrase it it means, "Forgive me for being offensive/contridictory, but I feel I must", which is I suspect the original intent of the phrase probably from a time where there was more rigid class stratification and people could get in serious trouble for speaking above their station. In modern contexts and usage, it never IME the equivalent of "forgive me for what I'm about to say because I know it is wrong...", rather it is the equivalent of an aside to the audience which means, "Forgive me of the verbal hiding I'm about to give this jerk because he deserves it..."

Actually, I think I can give an even more exact accounting of how the phrase passed into general usage. My suspicion is that the phrase originally was used as a common written descriptor when describing how some two third parties of different social standing had interacted. When the lower social party had contridict the one of higher social standing, it was essential to write of the exchange that the lower party had contridicted the other with "all due respect". Otherwise, someone reading the account might think ill of the lower party. Somehow, gradually this usage must have moved inside the quotation marks, where in my opinion it clearly doesn't belong.

In any event, I strongly encourage you not to use this phrase where respect due to social status is still required. If you say, "With all due respect..." to a judge, don't be surprised if he or she blows his or her top.

Since I can convince no one of anything by means of words alone, I leave it to the reader to decide how he means it, particularly when he finds himself using it in the future.
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First Post
Meh. The only thread that still bugs me after it went the way of the Dodo was that whole "Reveille/Frukathka" debacle.

The rest is all just water under the bridge. People wind up on my Ignore list for a few days, and then are taken off. Easy Peesy.

Tinker Gnome

Meh. The only thread that still bugs me after it went the way of the Dodo was that whole "Reveille/Frukathka" debacle.

As someone who considered Rev a friend, I was never mad about this, but he certainly did cause some trust issues to arise on the forum for a while.

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