Are PrC's too powerful?

[Alchemist]

How prestigious is it if everybody's got one?

The "Is D&D too powerful?" thread and threads about gearing up the core classes to entice players to stay with them longer instead of leaping into a PrC at the first chance make me ask this question.

One of the benchmarks for too powerful is if everybody has it, and it's rare to see characters without PrC's. There is no perceived incentive to stick with a core class when you can have most everything (and in many cases, everything) the core class provides plus some cool extras. This tells me that they are, in general, too much.

As an example, should spellcaster PrC's never give full caster advancement if nifty goodies are handed out too? If they do, what's the mitigating factor? Lower saves? Fewer HP? Monetary costs?

The easy answer is to RP it all away, and tell your players that PrC's are for those who have made the right connections with the right people. I don't think that RP'ing mechanical issues away is really a solid solution to what I see as a widespread issue.

What would be your optimal, mechanical solution to this issue? What would be your generally optimal solution?

 

[med stud]

I think you always should compare a PrC with the core class that matches it the best, and if the PrC comes out as more powerful, then it is too powerful. Classic examples are classes with full spell progression and special abilities. IMC all of those are written of as soon as I see them.

 

[Crothian]

I think people worry way too much about balance and allow their perception of game balance interfere with fun.

 

[hong]

Not this stupid topic again.

1. "Everybody" does not have a PrC. Every _player character_ may have a PrC, but there are still millions and millions of NON-player characters who will never have a PrC. That's unless the entire intelligent population of your campaign world consists of the player characters, which I admit is a distinct possibility for some DMs. Probably the ones who complain that everybody has a PrC.

2. There does not have to be any "prestige" in a prestige class. A prestige class is one whose membership is restricted to a specific group of people, but that doesn't have any necessary relationship to prestige in the game world itself. A knight PrC may be highly prestigious. A necromancer or assassin PrC would not be, unless this is a different usage of the word prestige that I wasn't previously aware of.

3. Even if every PC takes a prestige class, this says nothing about whether prestige classes are too powerful, any more than the fact that everyone starts with a base class implies base classes are too powerful. Now if every PC took ONE PARTICULAR prestige class, that might imply that that particular prestige class was too powerful. Of course, that will never happen, unless a campaign features only one prestige class. Which may well be a distinct possibility for some DMs, probably the ones who complain that everybody has a PrC.

 

[Dark Jezter]

I don't think all prestige classes are overpowered. Many of them are, though, such as the Peerless Archer and the Ninja of the Crecent Moon. There's also the debate about the Mystic Theurge, but I haven't seen that class playtested, so I can't comment on it.

As for the qustion on everyone taking them, prestige classes are popular, but I don't think that the overwhelming majority of players take them. In my FR campaign, 2 of my 5 players plan on taking PrCs (the sorcerer eventually plans on becoming an arcane devotee, while the bard wants to become a Harper scout). The other three players, who consist of a cleric, a fighter, and a ranger/rogue, do not appear to be interested in PrCs.

 

[Harlock]

I second med stud's comments and add this: I also dislike PrCs that offer +1 caster level/power point progression at first level that encourage people to do the powergamery take one level to get the benefits (weapon/armor proficiencies, spell-like ability etc.) without losing anything and then going back to their original class. I hate seeing Wizard 12/PrC1... I like the concept of Prestige Classes as written in the DMG and I intend to limit them severely in my next campaign or at least impose the same multiclassing penalties for them as I would for core classes.

 

[Alchemist]

I think people worry way too much about balance and allow their perception of game balance interfere with fun.

Fair enough. I'm not really talking about balance vs fun, but rather having viable options in sticking with a core class rather than jumping into a PrC, or even another class.

If a player feels their character sucks compared to another character in the party because he stuck true with fighter and the other player took some ranger and some rogue (or whatever) then hopped into a PrC and now kicks more ass than the pure fighter can, that detracts from the game. Even though he stuck with fighter because it's part of his concept, he feels left behind.

I realize it's up to me as the DM to mitigate this effect and make it fun for everybody, and I do so. I'm not looking for suggestions on improving my game, but rather to open up discussion about PrC power vs core class power.

 

[Alchemist]

One more thing: I don't mean to imply that all PrC's are overpowered, but rather that they seem to be the optimal choice for PC's. And I'm wondering if that's a good thing, so to speak. Carry on.

 

[Nifft]

I think that if a PrC matches a player's character concept better than a core class -- and, given the deliberate generality of core classes, this is quite common -- than the PC will find that PrC to be a better choice than a core class.

With regard to munchkinism: 3e rewards specialization, and PrCs are usually specialists of some kind. However, many PCs are specialists for non-munchkin reasons -- it's fun to be an expert of a domain, even if it's not the domain of ultimate numerical butt-kicking.

In either case -- munchkinism or good role-playing -- PCs like to specialize, and PrCs are a good way to do just that.

-- Nifft

 

[Valiantheart]

Hate hate hate PrCs. You can make 90% of them with some high level feats and a couple of custom spells. Give me a book of mid to high level feats and I will be happy.