Are PrC's too powerful?

[David Argall]

too powerful

PrCs are a survival of a bad idea. We wisely rejected the demi-human limits that were supposed to allow them to be powerful at low levels in trade for being wimps at high. But the same bad idea, that sacrifice at one level can justify power at another was embraced from the 1st introduction of prestige classes.

I can't say that most PrCs are overwhelmingly too strong, but as noted, players in large numbers are selecting them and that says we should be suspicious and looking at weakening them.

 

[Fenes 2]

I think Prestige Classes can be too powerful for campaign. In one of my campaigns I have been looking for a fitting prestige class for my bard for a long time. I finally gave up looking for "the right Prestige Class" when I found a Prestige Class that had the flavor I wanted, and the Character fit it perfectly. The only drawback was that I did not want any of the nifty powers the class gave, judging them - even the prerequisite feat - overpowered for that particular campaign. I realized then that all I really wanted was the prestige, not the class.

 

[Chun-tzu]

Re: too powerful

PrCs are a survival of a bad idea. We wisely rejected the demi-human limits that were supposed to allow them to be powerful at low levels in trade for being wimps at high. But the same bad idea, that sacrifice at one level can justify power at another was embraced from the 1st introduction of prestige classes.

The idea of sacrifice at lower levels for greater power at higher ones has nothing to do with the concept of the prestige class. True, we do see this in a small number of PrCs, but it's not inherent to designing a PrC.

Prestige classes are a great idea. They're an extension of the character class system. Character classes exist as a short-hand for character creation. Classless systems make character design much more customizable, but there's a trade-off. It takes much longer to build characters, or to even describe their abilities to others, and there's greater potential for min/maxing.

Prestige classes add another level to the class system. If I tell you I have a Fighter 16, you still don't really know a lot about the character. If I say I have a Fighter 6/Order of the Bow Initiate 10, or a Fighter 6/Cavalier 10, you know quite a bit right there. Prestige classes strike a very nice balance between standardization and customization.

 

[Fenes 2]

Re: Re: too powerful

Prestige classes add another level to the class system. If I tell you I have a Fighter 16, you still don't really know a lot about the character. If I say I have a Fighter 6/Order of the Bow Initiate 10, or a Fighter 6/Cavalier 10, you know quite a bit right there. Prestige classes strike a very nice balance between standardization and customization.

You could also tell me that you have an archer, or a mounted knight, or a swashbuckler, or a noble cleric.

 

[Chun-tzu]

Re: Re: Re: too powerful

You could also tell me that you have an archer, or a mounted knight, or a swashbuckler, or a noble cleric.

And that would tell you about the flavor of the character, but not necessarily about the mechanics. The purpose of the rules is to support the mechanics. Flavor takes care of itself.

In 3E "official rules", an archer can be any number of things. An Arcane Archer, or a Deepwood Sniper, is something very specific.

 

[Valiantheart]

Re: Re: Re: Re: too powerful

And that would tell you about the flavor of the character, but not necessarily about the mechanics. The purpose of the rules is to support the mechanics. Flavor takes care of itself.

In 3E "official rules", an archer can be any number of things. An Arcane Archer, or a Deepwood Sniper, is something very specific.

Isnt that the point? I dont know but when Im talking to the town magistrate whos looking to hire a few mercs i dont tell him im a fighter4/arcane archer6. No if he asks i tell him I am an archer.

While we are at it lets design the arcane archer shall we?
Well lets see what we need:
1 Greater Magic Weapon - check
1 Spell or metamagic feat to tie a spell to an arrow - check
1 Low level spell to create a phase arrow - check
1 Mid level spell to make an arrow split and target a number of targets per caster level - check

Hey look you're done and all you had to do was a little spell research. Wow, didnt even have to change classes. Amazing.

 

[Theuderic]

A simple answer: YES.

 

[fett527]

A very long debated issue. I'm glad muhcashin quotes Monte, I hadn't read that before and it's perfect. Most PrCs should be tailored to your world. If you don't like them, don't let the player use them. I found a PrC that is perfect for the character I am playing: Foehunter from Masters of the Wild. I am taking it because it is a natural progression for the character I am playing. It absolutely fits his personality but does not lend itself to being an actual organization. I looked at it with my DM and we decided it would be a great fit. It's also a very balanced class, very specialized. All of its benefits focus on the hated enemy and you are very good at combating your hated enemy, however you give up overall combat ability. Keep the flavor for your character make the decision to use a PrC fit the flavor.

 

[Chun-tzu]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: too powerful

Isnt that the point? I dont know but when Im talking to the town magistrate whos looking to hire a few mercs i dont tell him im a fighter4/arcane archer6. No if he asks i tell him I am an archer.

The point of what? Are you arguing that prestige classes are unnecessary? Well, sure. They've been optional from the beginning. But by that very same argument, most classes are unnecessary. Who needs a Ranger, when there are Fighter/Rogues and Fighter/Druids? Why have Barbarians when we already have Fighters and Rangers?

That doesn't mean they shouldn't be there. Maybe you like a minimalist game, but I find a lot of classes and prestige classes to be interesting and potentially inspiring. Any _good_ class or prestige class is good for the game.

While we are at it lets design the arcane archer shall we?
Well lets see what we need:
1 Greater Magic Weapon - check
1 Spell or metamagic feat to tie a spell to an arrow - check
1 Low level spell to create a phase arrow - check
1 Mid level spell to make an arrow split and target a number of targets per caster level - check

Hey look you're done and all you had to do was a little spell research. Wow, didnt even have to change classes. Amazing.

Of course you don't NEED to change classes. (And I'm not sure what you're even doing in this example; what kind of Fighter 4 is doing spell research?)

Prestige classes are an optional mechanic, but a good one. It allows modification of classes, in the service of flavor. It allows the creation of virtually any type of fantasy character, without changing the core rules. The core philosophy of 3e is options, not restrictions. More options is a good thing.

Sure, there are a lot of poorly designed prestige classes out there. But that doesn't mean that the idea of prestige classes is flawed.

 

[fett527]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: too powerful

Sure, there are a lot of poorly designed prestige classes out there. But that doesn't mean that the idea of prestige classes is flawed.

Wonderful point! Agree wholeheartedly!