Are shifters too powerful?

[devrimk]

Thanks.
Where is "Razorclaw Elite" feat ? Is it house rule or something?

I think natural weapon rule some stupidity. When your character have BaB:+6, he can use long sword twice and claw once (with 1/2 Str. Dmg.). But he can't use claws like this because natural weapons cannot attack twice. Isn't it weird?

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Thanks.
Where is "Razorclaw Elite" feat ? Is it house rule or something?

It's a shifter feat from the Eberron campaign setting.

 

[devrimk]

Sorry but no. It is not in the Eberron Campaign Setting book.

 

[green slime]

Races of Eberron, page 114

 

[Ballard_Alvar]

I guess I'm getting frustrated because I want to make a character that is a front line warrior using his claws as his primary weapon. A large portion of our time is spent in dungeons where I can expect five to six encounters per day. I want to make a character that is reliable enough to be in every fight. Not just the first two or three per day. I'm having a very hard time making a warrior that can shift enough to be viable at the lvl 6 to 10 range. . . .The other way was taking levels of druid and using the shifter substitution levels.

Ahrimon

Dear Frustrated Character Designer:

I just started reading your post, and I apologize in advance if what I am about to say has already been said. I have been min/max-ing for years and in my experience if you want to play a character with claws there are three ways to do it. being that you are(or were) targeting 6-10th levels that eliminates Bear Warrior. Of the two remaining options you have already grazed the surface of one of them, and in my opinion, the best. Lets face it, the Druid is the most powerful class in D&D.3.5. (e.g. d8 hit die, cleric BAB, Wild Shape, AND full Casting. I have made Druids that can produce 400+ damage/rd (given at 14th level) but certainly achievable. the examples I gave above of good aspects may not sound like much, but with the Natural Spell feat you can cast in wild form. this means that while you are shaped into a Polar Bear at 8th level, or and advanced Tiger (they advance to Huge-you get pounce) you can cast buffing spells on yourself like Bulls Strength, or the better choice Animal Growth( increased size +8 str bonus natural armor—stacks with Barkskin) and you will rip them to shreds with your 41+ str. That was pretty easy, wasn’t it? The Best part is, that at 8th level when you are doing all that each Wildshape will last 8 hrs, so you can do it all day long and then some. Did I mension you get Full Casting(all that and spells spells spells).

The third way to be effective with claws is to be a psychic warrior with claws of the beast. My roommate once tweaked one to do 17d6 + str with each attack. Between that, his reach of 20’ and Great Cleave that character killed folks dead. I think this last option is less viable because he could only do that 2-3 time per day because of power point issues.

I hope I have been helpful.

 

[KarinsDad]

Lets face it, the Druid is the most powerful class in D&D.3.5. (e.g. d8 hit die, cleric BAB, Wild Shape, AND full Casting. I have made Druids that can produce 400+ damage/rd (given at 14th level) but certainly achievable. the examples I gave above of good aspects may not sound like much, but with the Natural Spell feat you can cast in wild form. this means that while you are shaped into a Polar Bear at 8th level, or and advanced Tiger (they advance to Huge-you get pounce) you can cast buffing spells on yourself like Bulls Strength, or the better choice Animal Growth( increased size +8 str bonus natural armor—stacks with Barkskin) and you will rip them to shreds with your 41+ str. That was pretty easy, wasn’t it? The Best part is, that at 8th level when you are doing all that each Wildshape will last 8 hrs, so you can do it all day long and then some. Did I mension you get Full Casting(all that and spells spells spells).

How exactly does the "super Druid" handle a Flying Sorcerer with Greater Invisibility pelting him with offensive spells?


Also, core rules itself state that a Druid that has not been outside of a temperate forest could not become a polar bear. If you allow just any animal in the monster manuals, even ones the Druid has never encountered, then yes, the Druid can become more powerful. If you play according to core rules, it's more difficult to "min/max" this way.


Core rules also does not state that a Druid is allowed to bump up the size of herself in Wild Shape with Animal Growth. Animal Growth itself states that "Multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack".

It does not state "Multiple spell effects that increase size do not stack". Since Supernatural Abilities can be Dispelled or suppressed in an Antimagic Field, they have to be considered magical effects.

So, you cannot increase your size by Wild Shaping and also by casting Animal Growth.


Finally, does the Natural Spell feat exist in 3.5? It was in the Masters of the Wild 3.0 book, but I could not find it in any 3.5 book (but, I do not have them all, is it in Races of the Wild?).


If you bend the rules to allow just anything, then sure, Druids can get real powerful. If you follow the rules, they can get powerful, but not brokenly so.

 

[Wasteland Knight]

Originally Posted by Seeten
Could you calculate that out to show the 5th encounter for that day, KD? Say, the one where the Shifter is out of Claw shifts, but the TWF guy is still using both weapons?

I'll do that when you calculate the 1st encounter for that day where the TWF guy has lost at least one weapon and possibly both to either Sunders or Disarms...

I honestly don't think the two situations are a reasonable comparison. Seeten's situation of a 5th encounter during a day is something that happens quite frequently in many campaigns. I don't believe the situation of a Two Weapon Fighter losing a weapon to a Sunder/Disarm, while certainly possible, occurs nearly as often just for the simple reason that only a small portion of opponents will have sundering or disarming abilities. But you only need a monster, any monster, to have a 5th encounter.

Regarding Ahrimon's post, I would say that shifting is well balanced. I've been running an Eberron campaign since shortly after the hardcover hit the shelves, and one of the characters is a beasthide shifter ranger. Observing this character from 1st to 5th, when he isn't shifted he isn't underpowered, and the shifting gives a noticeable, if shortlived, boost to his combat prowess.

I think the approach needed when designing a shifter character is don't build your character around what he can do when shifted, rather treat the shifting as an extra boost to your abilities. Unfortunately this doesn't work well with your desire for a character who can fight with claws all the time. Using the rules as written, this concept will be tougth to achieve with a shifter. You could certainly create a fighter type who uses weapons then shifts to claws when needed. To be able to reliably fight with claws all the time I think you would need to convince your DM to allow a houserule feat similar to the Aspect of Were proposed by John Q. Mayhem...

 

[moritheil]

I honestly don't think the two situations are a reasonable comparison. Seeten's situation of a 5th encounter during a day is something that happens quite frequently in many campaigns. I don't believe the situation of a Two Weapon Fighter losing a weapon to a Sunder/Disarm, while certainly possible, occurs nearly as often just for the simple reason that only a small portion of opponents will have sundering or disarming abilities. But you only need a monster, any monster, to have a 5th encounter.

I would caution that this depends entirely on the DM. IMC we have, thus far, neither sunders nor 5 encounters per day, but I am not playing with rat-bastard mode enabled.

The kid gloves, as it were, are still on.

If the DM desires additional difficulties and complications, then it is equally easy for the DM to throw in a fifth encounter, or throw in some NPC with improved sunder.

 

[Brother MacLaren]

Finally, does the Natural Spell feat exist in 3.5? It was in the Masters of the Wild 3.0 book, but I could not find it in any 3.5 book (but, I do not have them all, is it in Races of the Wild?).

Player's Handbook

 

[Hypersmurf]

I think natural weapon rule some stupidity. When your character have BaB:+6, he can use long sword twice and claw once (with 1/2 Str. Dmg.). But he can't use claws like this because natural weapons cannot attack twice. Isn't it weird?

The razorclaw, of course, has a weird rule.

He can't attack more than once in a round with a single claw, since it's a natural weapon.

However, the text then goes on to state that he can use a single claw as a light off-hand weapon, but that all his attacks in the round take a -2 penalty if he does so.

1. The penalty for using a light off-hand weapon should be -4 to all primary attacks and -8 to all off-hand attacks, unless the character has the Two-Weapon Fighting feat.

2. A natural weapon like a claw should be used as a secondary natural attack, at a -5 penalty to its attacks and no penalty to primary attacks, not as an off-hand weapon.

3. If the claw is being used as an off-hand weapon, rather than a secondary natural attack, it should be able to benefit from ITWF and GTWF for extra attacks, since it is not being treated as a natural weapon and thus the once-per-round restriction on natural weapons cannot apply.

-Hyp.