Are shifters too powerful?

[Ballard_Alvar]

[font=&quot]

Actually, it is totally cut and dried.

You do have a large Polar Bear. But, it is the same Halfling character who now has reach. He does not have the form of a Halfling, but he is still the same character. As such, there is no way you can argue that he did not gain size categories.

. . . Not to nitpick, but last time I checked the Polar Bear didn't have reach, as he is a Large (Long). . . But I feel that this side conversation is detracting from the spirit of Ahrimon’s original post. So if no one minds, I will start a new thread to further discuss this. My apologies to Ahrimon for not being able to contribute more to his shifter concept(a favorite of mine, but unfortunately not easily workable).[/font]

 

[Diirk]

stuff

Diirk is no longer a medium sized human druid, he is now a large sized brown bear. However he is not enlarged... he is simply an ordinary brown bear. Now if he was a medium sized brown bear... well then he'd be under the effects of size altering magic.

However I accept that I'll never convince you of this, as the wording in the RAW isn't precise on this subject, so we might as well drop it.

Of course under your way of doing things, I guess druids can't Reduce Animal themselves either. Thats got to suck for those cramped dungeons. (compare a reduced dire wolf to a normal wolf.. just a tad difference, heh).

Irrelevant might be if the two magic effects did the same thing but had different names.

But, the example in the PHB page 172 TOTALLY disagrees with this interpretation, hence, your interpretation of the "irrelevant" sentence is NOT the only one according to RAW.

"If a creature using a shapechange effect becomes petrified by a flesh to stone spell, however, it turns into a mindless, inert statue, and the shapechange effect cannot help it escape."

The second transmutation here trumps the first one and the spells have totally differing effects.

Well, the shapechange isn't entirely irrelevant. If you were in a dragon form, you'd turn into a statue of a dragon, not a statue of a human... the spell is still there, it just doesn't matter that its there, as statues can't take free actions to change form. Which is directly the opposite of what you're suggesting, you're saying the animal growth should entirely go away because some of it doesn't work.

I do not disagree with this IF the "One Effect Makes Another Irrelevent" rule does not trump the "Different Bonus Names" rule in this case.

The problem we have is that we do not know which rule trumps the other.

It doesn't matter which trumps the other, the "One Effect Makes Another Irrelevant" rules is, frankly, irrelevant.