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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Ashrym" data-source="post: 9437515" data-attributes="member: 6750235">I'm not sure I agree with the premise being based on damage, or how we're defining "viable" here.   I'm getting the impression that the most damage is what's important and everything less than is being othered as not "viable".  I don't think "viable" starts at the top and our baseline is off.If I make a typical human strength based fighter in armor with a long sword and shield then I would think typical equates better to viable so long as the character has decent options to contribute.If I were to take that with an entertainer background, for example, I can add +2 to strength and +1 to charisma going with the musician origin feat and the use the human bonus feat for the healer origin feat.Starting ability scores of Str 17, Dex 10, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 12, Cha 14 based on standard array.  Fighters have enough starting gold for chainmail, shield, and a long sword plus other items (like that healer's kit).  They would start with 18 AC and extra protection from the sap weapon expertise provides.  Skill proficiencies aren't so great from the background (perform, acrobatics), but I can add medicine (human bonus) and class options (history, intimidation) for more less than typical skills.  ;-)Dueling fighting style provides a bit better damage for those concerned.  ;-)I would call this viable.  Decent AC and attack stat, additional healing options and handing out inspiration.  I could get more damage or defense.  I could give better skill synergy.  But I don't think the highest number is what determines that viability.The build would be a style of combat medic with a good bedside manner.  I could have fun with it.What I don't foresee is a desire to multiclass.  2nd level fighter gives action surge (which I want because it builds towards nova capability) and tactical mind (because it can add a bonus to actions outside of combat, which I want).3rd level fighter gives the subclass.  I don't want to delay that.  In this case I'll stick with champion.  Improved critical can add damage but remarkable athlete now gives advantage on initiative and strength checks, which I want. 4th level is the feat.  Heavy armor mastery increases str to 18 and grants damage reduction.  It's also an additional use of second wind.  5th level is the extra attack.  6th level is another feat or ASI.  7th level on this build would add another fighting style.  8th is another feat or ASI.  9th is indomitable and tactical master.  10th is heroic inspiration and another use of second wind.  11th is another extra attack...Fighters get something at every level.  Every level multi-classed delays everything farther down the list.  I would rather get to those later abilities faster.  2 action surges, 4 second winds, and 3 indomitable wills is pretty decent on a build that also reduces a lot of damage by 6 points (at 17th level and above with HAM, which is now based on proficiency bonus) and heals 10 hp per round while bloodied (18th level champion survivor trait with 20 con by 14th level).Giving up the capstone for a fighter (or monk or barbarian) seems like a poor choice but I get that it's often like the carrot that's never reached.  Delaying other abilities is also an issue, however, and I don't think damage is everything.  ;-)</blockquote>

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