Are special manuevers even harder than they were in the Beta?

[BryonD]

But is it harder to knock someone prone then it is to hurt or kill him?

It certainly CAN BE harder to knock someone prone than it is to strike them a single time.

A gnome wizard can easily have a lower CMD than AC. Thus, it might be *easier* to knock the gnome prone than to strike him.

The debate seems to have fixated on certain assumptions that don't hold across the board under the PF system. And I'll readily agree that any system that unifies multiple actions under one resolution mechanic is going to have rough edges at places. But, so far what I see in PF is that things get harder when they should get harder and easier when they should get easier.

Looking at the iconics in PF#26, three of then have lower CMDs than their AC, and the fourth has an AC equal to CMD. The CMDs are built on characteristics that can reasonably be said the affect the difficulty of completing the maneuvers.

Bottom line, from what I've seen so far it is harder when it makes sense and easier when that makes sense. I call that good.

 

[Samurai]

See, for me having to roll a 14+? Yeah, that means it's not worth it; failure means absolutely nothing happens. I'll take the safe route every time and inflict damage, since at least that way _something_ is happening.

I realize I'm apparently alone in thinking this, but... *shrug* ... I don't consider 14+ a "respectable" chance.

There is (and should be) a range of difficulty. Bullrushing a large elemental or a huge giant should not be very easy. It should be much tougher than rushing a mind flayer, and it is.

Second, that 14+ is only if you have not invested even a single feat into it. 1 feat makes it 12+, 2 means 10+. Or have the wizard cast Enlarge Person on you, increasing your size and str to improve your odds. There are lots of ways you can improve your chances against a tougher foe, and against a smaller foe, make it nearly automatic success.

Finally, there are times when shoving a foe off a cliff, into magma, into a pit, away from a downed ally or squishy mage, etc can be far more valuable than a few points of damage (even combat-ending in 1 hit).