Are the Vaati the progenitors of the Modrons?

[Razz]

Whichever it is of the Fiendish Codices that summarizes the concepts even seem to hint that the Wind Dukes precede such basic creatures as demons and devils, and even such concepts as good and evil, and hence the Great Wheel as we know it was probably in a much more primitive and primeval state.

I think the idea of the Vaati creating either the inevitables or the modrons certainly could be plausible. Although, honestly, I like the idea of them creating the inevitables more. I'm kinda with Erik Mona's beginning on the April issue of Dragon--they fit in April because while they're not funny per se, they're also not very serious. I mean really; the very idea of the modrons is pretty dang silly, and even the designers who have worked on them and developed them seem to agree with that idea.

What better creature is there to represent law than the modrons? I don't think they're silly looking. It's just the way artists have drawn them. Get Todd Lockwood to draw the entire modron caste and you'll change your mind instantly.

The concept is not silly. A race of extraplanar, intelligent constructs to represent law? Considering law is a mechanical process and Mechanus is, well, made up of an infinite amount of gears, it makes perfect sense. Have you even read their society? What about it is silly and doesn't fit the "idea" of Law?

Seriously, I think you should glance over at the Chaos representatives. Color-coded frogs isn't what most have in mind for representatives of chaos, to be fair.

 

[Shemeska]

The Vaati are lawful, very very lawful. But they're ultimately creatures of elemental air, and they aren't personifications of abstract law like a modron/parai/gear spirit/etc is. That said, it's very possible that they might have had a hand in the creation of the inevitables in collaboration with some other as yet unknown beings (the only one known being the deity Rudra who created the first Maruts).

The Aphanacts were mentioned as the creators of the Inevitables. The Vaati come from the elemental plane of air, so they aren't likely to be the progenitors of anything on Mechanus.

Given the descriptions of the Aphanacts, I'm rather fond of the notion that they were descendants of the race of LN beings that Asmodeus and the first generation of Baatezu were once members of (or perhaps more specifically they might have been descendants of the LN race that would have also spawned the first Erinyes).

The Aphanacts might have been simply late in falling, tinged by associated when Asmodeus was touched and corrupted by the spreading influence of Evil as it interacted with the primordial plane of pure Law. The predecessors of the Aphanacts may have been spared the fall of the Baatezu, but might have inherited some of their merciless ideology in the process, just not quite enough to make them LE. Later, much later, they were then ultimately exterminated by the other LN races in a sort of second purge of their ranks.

That's the take myself and a few others like Rip have mulled over a bit.

 

[Desdichado]

*sigh* I should have known that some modron fanboy would get up in arms.

Yes--they are silly. When they were trotted out for Planescape and reinvigorated, they were still silly, and the designers and artists who worked on them all agreed they were silly.

If you want a better idea for a construct that is the epitome of law, you have to look no further than the inevitables. That's a good concept that I can take seriously. Modrons---no. No modron will ever, ever grace a campaign of mine.

Please--don't tell me what I will think. I don't care if Todd Lockwood or Frank Freaking Frazetta illustrates them; they're still dumber than dirt.

And comparing them to slaadi isn't really kosher--I never claimed that the slaadi were all that good of a concept. Also, the slaadi haven't been very froglike since 3e anyway.

 

[Baron Opal]

*sigh* I should have known that some modron fanboy would get up in arms.

Yes. Fear us, for we are legion.

But, also yes, I think they're a little goofy too. I dislike the inevitables as the paragons of Law since they are obviously constructed, have such narrow goals and don't really seem to be of Mechanus so much as based there.

I have reworked the modrons IMC to be more crystalline and slightly biomechanical. They are accompanied by static discharges. Limbs tend to be a continuous electrical discharge moving an object or beams of light. (Like Star Trek I or The Entity) For example, my pentadrones are a flat five-sided metallo-crystalline pyramid with five glowing blue eyes floating in front of the facets. They walk on five legs that look like static discharges (a la the martian spaceships in the '60s War of the Worlds movie).

 

[Soel]

Where did these Aphanacts first appear? Any more details about them?

 

[Kobold Avenger]

Where did these Aphanacts first appear? Any more details about them?

The Ecology of the Inevitable article in Dragon Magazine...

 

[victorysaber]

What's wrong with modrons?

 

[GQuail]

What's wrong with modrons?

Speaking for myself and my group: Angels, Demons & Devils have ties to some classical concepts in real world mythology, which helps a lot in making players "get" them: Modrons, less so. (And the same for slaads as well). Ice Devils, Hound Archons & Mariliths may not have a direct comparison in real faiths but their close enough to these basic ideas that players understand what's coming and can fit it into a fantasy pantheon.

Modrons and Slaads, less so. Slaads, the mutant frogs, seem a bit out there as a concept but players can probably take a stab at "demons, but not evil" or something - Modrons, however, are perhaps a bit too "unfantasy" for some people. Especially in their 1E look: to be fair, lots of 1E monsters look silly, but I simply can't run those Modrons and get player respect.

Now, Paizo's April issue of Dragon presented me with Modrons that I finally "got", and making them constructs rather than outsiders (even if that breaks some planar physics) also helped me in my appreciation for them: plus, the art looked less "weird" and more "cute", which is a step in the right direction. (And a post by Mousferatu about Modrons as Dalek-a-likes really gave me some funky ideas!) But for a lot of people, earlier material has perhaps spoiled them: and evevn with, they may still not fit some people's genre expectations.

Formians and Inevitables are, IMHO, a better plug for how some people see Law. The emotionless spread of the rigid ant colony structure and the interplanar police are in place of the Modrons in the MM for a reason: the raw concepts are easier to plug into campaigns built on traditional rather than D&D fantasy concepts. (Of course, there will be exceptions: Inevitables, for example, may be too much "Robocop" for some) I think that Far Realm inhabiants and stuff like the Gibberming Mouther or Chaos Beast would be a better fit for Chaos than the Slaad as well.

 

[paradox42]

I have reworked the modrons IMC to be more crystalline and slightly biomechanical. They are accompanied by static discharges. Limbs tend to be a continuous electrical discharge moving an object or beams of light. (Like Star Trek I or The Entity) For example, my pentadrones are a flat five-sided metallo-crystalline pyramid with five glowing blue eyes floating in front of the facets. They walk on five legs that look like static discharges (a la the martian spaceships in the '60s War of the Worlds movie).

I love this idea. Yoinkerriffic!

And, I never liked the idea of Inevitables as ultimate paragons of Law either, even if they are robots and artificial. IMO, the ultimate paragons of any alignment (even one as contrived and imposed as Law) should be living creatures of some sort. Modrons, however silly in their current incarnation, are at least living geometric forms. Always made sense to me, to make paragons of Law that way. No doubt it made sense to Gygax too, when he was compiling the original Monster Manual II.

 

[victorysaber]

No Modron love?