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<blockquote data-quote="Charlaquin" data-source="post: 8001046" data-attributes="member: 6779196"><p>As you noticed in your edit, I was picking up on the fact that your examples both involved combat. Apologies if I misunderstood you.</p><p></p><p></p><p>I was using the threat of a randomly-triggered complication (shorthanded as “random encounter”) as one possible example of a way to introduce a cost for failure, and therefore challenge, to the “searching the room” scenario. Such a complication does not need to be combat, and randomly rolled complications need not be the only way to introduce a cost of failure and make the scenario challenging. Alternatively, if the scenario isn’t meant to be challenging, then I don’t see any need to call for a roll to find what’s being searched for in the room. If the thing is hidden only because it makes sense in the fiction for it to be so and not with the intent of challenging the PCs, then... Why not just have them find it when they search for it?</p><p></p><p></p><p>Agreed.</p><p></p><p></p><p>I would argue that if the object is hidden only because it makes sense in the fiction for it to be so and not as part of a challenge (IOW, as a flavor element), then the only thing requiring a roll to find it does is introduce the possibility for the players to fail to find it, thereby causing them to miss that flavor element. The players can’t know the thing is hidden unless they find it, so if they can fail to find it, then who is that bit of worldbuilding actually serving? Not the players.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Wh... what? I don’t understand how the stakes could matter if they aren’t a challenge... meaningful stakes are precisely what makes something challenging. I don’t... This statement makes no sense to me.</p><p></p><p></p><p>I agree. And if the reason for the thing being hidden is not to challenge the players, then what is the benefit of those possible outcomes? In my evaluation, if the thing is hidden to make the game world feel alive, that goal is actually harmed by making failure to find it a possible outcome. Maybe success at a cost might be a more desirable outcome, but in that case you’ve introduced meaningful stakes and now it’s a challenge.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Charlaquin, post: 8001046, member: 6779196"] As you noticed in your edit, I was picking up on the fact that your examples both involved combat. Apologies if I misunderstood you. I was using the threat of a randomly-triggered complication (shorthanded as “random encounter”) as one possible example of a way to introduce a cost for failure, and therefore challenge, to the “searching the room” scenario. Such a complication does not need to be combat, and randomly rolled complications need not be the only way to introduce a cost of failure and make the scenario challenging. Alternatively, if the scenario isn’t meant to be challenging, then I don’t see any need to call for a roll to find what’s being searched for in the room. If the thing is hidden only because it makes sense in the fiction for it to be so and not with the intent of challenging the PCs, then... Why not just have them find it when they search for it? Agreed. I would argue that if the object is hidden only because it makes sense in the fiction for it to be so and not as part of a challenge (IOW, as a flavor element), then the only thing requiring a roll to find it does is introduce the possibility for the players to fail to find it, thereby causing them to miss that flavor element. The players can’t know the thing is hidden unless they find it, so if they can fail to find it, then who is that bit of worldbuilding actually serving? Not the players. Wh... what? I don’t understand how the stakes could matter if they aren’t a challenge... meaningful stakes are precisely what makes something challenging. I don’t... This statement makes no sense to me. I agree. And if the reason for the thing being hidden is not to challenge the players, then what is the benefit of those possible outcomes? In my evaluation, if the thing is hidden to make the game world feel alive, that goal is actually harmed by making failure to find it a possible outcome. Maybe success at a cost might be a more desirable outcome, but in that case you’ve introduced meaningful stakes and now it’s a challenge. [/QUOTE]
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