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Message: <blockquote data-quote="doctorbadwolf" data-source="post: 8001066" data-attributes="member: 6704184">No worries, I just think I put much less importance on the specifics of a given example than you and some others in this thread do. The players won't see every part of the world. That's a good thing. And the hidden gem or whatever can also just be a bonus. You roll well, or search very thoroughly, or both, and you find a cool extra. I genuinely don't understand how that could be controversial. Like...i guess it's like an easter egg? Do you really not include anything in your games that is just...extra cool stuff that the players might not ever see?I am equally confused. I don't even know how to explain that a thing that doesn't matter can be challenging? Like it's...the two aren't...what?If it must be overcome through effort...it's a challenge. It may be a challenge that you can just ignore without any negative consequence, but it's still a challenge. Climbing a cliff face is a challenge, regardless of whether you need to get to the top. Even if you're secured and totally safe, it's still hard to do. It's...literally...challenging?The goal is actively helped by a chance of failure, because the game isn't just one scene. The item itself isn't important, but knowing that they will miss things in their adventures, that the world is bigger than what they see, enhances the world. Sometimes, you turn left, and you just don't get another chance to go down the other passage, and you never meet the weirdo pairing of a djinn  green knight and her dryad artificer wife. But, again, a lot of the time it isn't about a chance of failure, as such, but instead about adjudicating what type of success occurs, or what happens alongside the action.Sure, if the player says that they are just kinda standing there looking at the room, they aren't searching it. A reasonable DM would ask for clarification at such a bland declaration.Well, no. The rules are the rules, and advice on how to use the rules isn't. The stealth sidebar is written pretty explicitly as rules. The sidebar you used just doesn't support the idea that anything I ever described in this thread would have no chance of success. Saying "I search the entire room thoroughly" would suffice, even if we treated that sidebar as rules.</blockquote>

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