Are These Ideas A Sack of Rats?

[Rachel]

I'd say that the first is definitely messing with the intent of the ability, so bag-o-rats.

Actually I would say the same of both; they're ignoring intent, in order to obtain mechanical advantages.

Translation: They both violate the "spirit" of the rules.

Imho, the first is cheating the system and no DM should allow something so flagrant. Shame on the player for even going there.

As for the second, that's kind of a clever, non-traditional way of doing things; also, completely ridiculous. I would discourage it, myself...

 

[Benlo]

RAW, the first isn't legal, but "shame"? That's a great way to say "Don't try anything creative, or you'll be shunned." Might not be what you mean, but it might be how they take it if you said that to one of your players. I'd rather them try something, even if I have to say no, than for them to go through the motions and not get to try anything period.

Second is a bit trickier. I *think* it's okay, but there might be a ruling on this. I can feed someone in real life pretty easily, and as far as I know, a potion is a drink, not something you have to have your arms free to imbibe. Maybe make them roll a Dex check to see if they spill any, but that's about all I've got to shoot that down.

 

[Rachel]

RAW, the first isn't legal, but "shame"? That's a great way to say "Don't try anything creative, or you'll be shunned." Might not be what you mean, but it might be how they take it if you said that to one of your players. I'd rather them try something, even if I have to say no, than for them to go through the motions and not get to try anything period.

Very surprising. This has nothing to do with being "creative". The example presented is about another "C" word...Cheating. We are all aware a good DM encourages creativity. But this is about something a player is doing that clearly is a way to cheat in using a power. They are stabbing themselves to activate a power. Um, Im really sure that's what the 4ed designers had in mind.

I didn't say anything even close to "don't try anything creative, or you'll be shunned." Terrible response to my post.

 

[Rachel]

Also, I thought of this in regards to running around pouring potions down throats. Depending on how technical you want to get with this, you couldn't possibly do it.
Mid-combat, it's not like people are just standing around, mouths open. They are constantly moving, acting, even if to look this way and that. How would you get an allies attention when it's time for them to take their medicine? What if they are taller than you? Do you jump up to pour? Does the target ally bend down to receive the pour? Do either of you want to take your eyes off whats going on to coordinate this? Maybe you just grab the ally's head, pull it towards you, they open up and you pour the potion in all while the battle rages around you. And of course youre going to spill some! Youre acting in a second or two on your turn while again, in the middle of a life-or-death struggle involving scary monsters and sharp pointy things used to stab people.

Kind of what I meant in my previous post when I used the word ridiculous.

 

[Benlo]

I'm not going to turn this into an argument scenario, so I'll overlook you calling my post "terrible". Perhaps I was being a little reactionary, but it was still uncalled for.

Cutting yourself isn't exactly a freebie. You still take the damage, and like I said, it IS against the rules. In regards to the second, though, unless someone has some errata, a rule citation, etc handy, is still open for debate, which is more what I had in mind. You raise a good point with what you said about combat, which is why I said that a Dex check or something would be appropriate, to see if you could steady the bottle amidst the chaos. I think you are getting the wrong idea from my post, and I will admit I could of phrased it better. There's plenty of confrontation on these boards, neither of us need to add to it, so I'm hoping we can clear the slate here.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Very surprising. This has nothing to do with being "creative". The example presented is about another "C" word...Cheating. We are all aware a good DM encourages creativity. But this is about something a player is doing that clearly is a way to cheat in using a power. They are stabbing themselves to activate a power. Um, Im really sure that's what the 4ed designers had in mind.

I didn't say anything even close to "don't try anything creative, or you'll be shunned." Terrible response to my post.

I am still concerned about powers that have action type "immediate reaction"

Why should a mage only be able to create a shield when he is about to beeing hit?

Usually immerdiate action should be a better action type than anything else, because you can do it when it is not your turn.

In th gnomes case you make yourself invisible on a hit, which may be a natural reaction to beeing hurt in the gnomes case. Still i don´t think it is cheating if you just make yourself invisible as a standard acion on your own turn (Biting yourself in the tongue if you like that)

In most cases this is a waste of a standard action but it can be handy sometimes. I would be more hesitant to call someone a cheater. It is a creative use of a power and only borderline useful coming at a cost.

 

[Benlo]

I think the player would be wasting it in most cases. It's an encounter power, so using it now means it might not save his bacon later. He's also taking damage(As a DM, I would of course make him roll damage. No "just scratch" or something like that). I guess I'd have to see this ploy in action to know how broken it'd be or not be.

In battle, it's not a legal tactic, and outside of it, I dunno. The most absurd scenario I can imagine is him laying prone so his ally as the + to hit him, and taking the damage, since it wouldn't be his turn, so the immediate action can be taken. even then, enemies could hear his footsteps, so it'd be of limited use.

 

[Nifft]

I am still concerned about powers that have action type "immediate reaction"

Why should a mage only be able to create a shield when he is about to beeing hit?

Usually immerdiate action should be a better action type than anything else, because you can do it when it is not your turn.

It's better when you want to use it and you can.

It's worse when you want to use it but you can't (e.g. because it is your turn).

There are Minor action buffs which work similarly to the Immediate action powers -- look for some in magic item powers -- but they frankly suck, as the cases when I want to spend a Minor to buff myself for 1 round are far less frequent than the cases when I want to not get hit on a monster's turn.

For example, Bloodcut Armor looks powerful on paper, but when I had it I found it to be mostly useless.

Cheers, -- N

 

[jdcash]

I play a gnome illusionist and was at wit's end trying to manage through a mostly physical skill challenge. I provoked someone to hit me (I took damage) to go invisible and bypass the situation. The DM told me that he was rewarding my creativity but that would not be allowed to be a routine tactic. I thought it was fair and appropriate.

 

[Rachel]

@Benlo:

We did clear everything up and I'm so glad.