Are you an expert on Kender?

BOZ

Creature Cataloguer
Hi there! :)

We are working on the Kender article at Wikipedia as part of a current mediation process.

The current task is to find sources for the article. The most needed type of sources are what is known as “reliable secondary sources”. That is, we need the sort of thing not published by TSR or WotC, not written by Hickman or Weis or any other current or former employee of TSR or WotC; something published in a gaming magazine not affiliated with TSR/WotC (such as old White Dwarf, Pyramid, etc) is good, and something even better would be like a book review from New York Times or some other major publisher. Most websites are no good, unless they can be considered independent reliable sources of information.

An important secondary task to that would be to find any sources to use as citations for the information currently in the article, or for information that is not in the article but should be, or if you have any suggestions about good places to find references.

I would ask that you not post directly to any of these mediation pages, to keep traffic between the involved parties mentioned on the main mediation page, and to avoid the typical sorts of longstanding arguments that have arisen on Wikipedia over these fictional subjects; these sorts of things can kill the mediation process. I would prefer that you post either here in this thread, or at the D&D Wikiproject talk page or at the Kender article talk page and I will copy and paste your relevant ideas to where the involved parties can more easily access them.

Thanks for any help you are able to give! :)
 

Orius

Adventurer
Good luck on that; the secondary sources that Wikipedia is clamering for sounds a lot like the sort of stuff T$R/Williams would crack down on hard back in the day. Even now, it's possible WotC might try to protect IP and copyrights. Most of the sources for this stuff are going to be TSR/WotC or their employees, past/present. The magazines or book reviews aren't likely to have that kind of information.

Some of the people who are demanding "secondary sources" are probably just boneheads (i.e. that moron Gavin Collins) who don't want D&D articles at all, but I suppose it could help if you make more reasonable minds aware of the reality that there probably won't be many secondary sources to draw upon because of zealous copyright/IP protection efforts by TSR. Then again, holding pop culture stuff to the same level of scrutiny as more academic topics is totally asinine. No one is going to be writing a paper on kender.

I don't think a lot of in-depth information for kender is really necessary for this page, though. Just a brief description, contrasting them with the more traditional hobbit, and the development of the kender by the Dragonlance design team should be sufficient.
 
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BOZ

Creature Cataloguer
well yeah, legitimate complaints aside... ;)

I figured I'd bring it to the best place to ask if you want obscure knowledge about D&D stuff. :) So, that said, anyone know of any good sources? I know it might be a challenge, but it couldn't hurt to ask.
 

BOZ

Creature Cataloguer
OK now, the thing is, perhaps in a lot of ways even more important than fining the kinds of sources that some people want, is to find sources for all of the information that is actually in the Kender article right now.

For example,
in the ''Tales'' trilogy, the dwarves state that when the Greygem came to Krynn, its chaotic magic transformed an elven army into the first kender and a dwarven army into the first Gnomes.
Any idea what "Tales" trilogy this line is referring to?
 

pedr

Explorer
I could be very wrong, but isn't the Tales trilogy the first set of anthologies? (Magic of Krynn; Kender, Gully Dwarves and Gnomes; and Love and War)? Though I went to Wikipedia to jog my memory on that, so this becomes rather circular! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Dragonlance_novels#Tales_I

I don't have copies of those books here (I once had them - think they're in a cupboard at my parents' house!) so I can't check I'm afraid.

I guess you've posted this at www.dragonlanceforums.com and the other Nexus-y places?
 

BOZ

Creature Cataloguer
pedr said:
I could be very wrong, but isn't the Tales trilogy the first set of anthologies? (Magic of Krynn; Kender, Gully Dwarves and Gnomes; and Love and War)? Though I went to Wikipedia to jog my memory on that, so this becomes rather circular! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Dragonlance_novels#Tales_I

I don't have copies of those books here (I once had them - think they're in a cupboard at my parents' house!) so I can't check I'm afraid.

I guess you've posted this at www.dragonlanceforums.com and the other Nexus-y places?
Actually I haven't, although that does make sense doesn't it? :) I came here first, because this place is familiar to me and people here generally know what they're talking about.

RangerWickett said:
That sounds right, but I don't want to guess.
 

Alzrius

The EN World kitten
BOZ said:
OK now, the thing is, perhaps in a lot of ways even more important than fining the kinds of sources that some people want, is to find sources for all of the information that is actually in the Kender article right now.

For example,

in the ''Tales'' trilogy, the dwarves state that when the Greygem came to Krynn, its chaotic magic transformed an elven army into the first kender and a dwarven army into the first Gnomes.

Any idea what "Tales" trilogy this line is referring to?
This particular bit is from the short story "Wanna Bet?" by Margaret Weis and Tracy Hickman, as published in the novel Kender, Gully Dwarves, and Gnomes, the second book of the first Tales Anthology series.

However, whoever wrote that line misremembered. In the book, Palin relays the mythology that Reorx cursed several humans to become the first gnomes, and it was the Graygem's magic that later transformed a group of gnomes into both the first kender and the first dwarves.

As an aside, were any official stats for half-kender ever published? I thought they were in one of the Sovereign Press books, but I can't seem to find them now.
 
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BOZ

Creature Cataloguer
Which reminds me... if anyone can find anything to put here, including and especially any good reviews that are critical of kender, i'll owe you big time. :)
 

BOZ

Creature Cataloguer
Alzrius said:
As an aside, were any official stats for half-kender ever published? I thought they were in one of the Sovereign Press books, but I can't seem to find them now.
According to Echohawk's index, just the Sov Press books "Age of Mortals" (2003) and "Races of Ansalon" (2007).
 

Alzrius

The EN World kitten
BOZ said:
you da man, oh kitten demon lord of fire.
I aim to please. :)

BOZ said:
According to Echohawk's index, just the Sov Press books "Age of Mortals" (2003) and "Races of Ansalon" (2007).
B'oh. I can't believe I didn't think to check that in the first place. I already have it, I just forgot about it. :eek:
 

BOZ

Creature Cataloguer
I'd already looked there, so no biggie. :) OK, time to get to bed, but I'm sure I'll be back. Thanks again, all!
 

Orius

Adventurer
Alzrius said:
This particular bit is from the short story "Wanna Bet?" by Margaret Weis and Tracy Hickman, as published in the novel Kender, Gully Dwarves, and Gnomes, the second book of the first Tales Anthology series.

However, whoever wrote that line misremembered. In the book, Palin relays the mythology that Reorx cursed several humans to become the first gnomes, and it was the Graygem's magic that later transformed a group of gnomes into both the first kender and the first dwarves.
The story was also reprinted in The Second Generation or whatever that book was called, likely because it's connected to the events of Dragons of Summer Flame. Oh, yeah Dragons of Summer Flame's page needs some serious work (just take a look at that wonderful plot summary).

There are some discrepancies about the Graygem, the original gnomes, and the creation of the Graygem races in the books and gaming material for Dragonlance. I think it's meant in part to represent different creation myth among the various races. Though the fact that many different people worked on Dragonlance probably has something to do with it to, shared universes sometimes have inconsistancies like this.
 
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BOZ

Creature Cataloguer
OK, at this point we are considering non-essential text to trim out of the article. I'd like to keep as much as necessary to be able to understand the kender, and get rid of extraneous details that are likely to be appreciated only by avid fans.

Take a look at this passage from this section. I was thinking of cutting the items that I put in italics. If you think some of that is important to keep, let me know.

"In ''Dragons of the Autumn Twilight'', Kender are described as "small boned, rarely more than 4 feet tall". In ''The Annotated Chronicles'', Jeff Grubb describes them as being "wilder than halflings, fearless, sometimes cruel as only children can be...savage, warrior children, ever curious, ever alert. Like elves, kender have pointed ears and slightly slanted, almond-shaped eyes. Their eye color ranges from green, blue and brown to any combination of those colors. Kenders grow wrinkles at a very young age, and these are seen as attractive by many kender (some kendermaids try to grow them through various methods, much like humans and other races try to remove them).

Kender hair color is usually brown or black, with occasional kenders bearing red/orange and blond hair. Their hair is usually a lighter shade than other races because of all the time they spend outside. A generic kender hairstyle is the ''topknot'', where the hair is grown long and then tied up in a knot on the top of the head. A kender's topknot is usually a source of pride for them. Temple braids are a sign of noble descent among kender.

Kender tend to have high pitched voices, but their body allows them to make a wide range of noises, making them apt ventriloquists, animal imitators, and many other roles. When kender are excited, their voice tends to revert to a normal high pitch, and they speak very quickly."
 

Cam Banks

Explorer
Boz,

I've let www.dragonlance.com's resident kender expert, Sean Macdonald, know about this, and he should drop by soon.

Our community has more subject experts about Dragonlance than any other community in the world, and I don't say that lightly.

If there's ever anything else you'd like to know or have more questions, please feel free to visit www.dragonlanceforums.com, check the Lexicon at the Dragonlance Nexus, or just drop me a line.

Cheers,
Cam
 

Snifferdoo

Villager
Sorry for showing up late to the party. Did someone need some information on Kender? BTW, I think the text you proposed to cut would be fine to remove.
 

Snifferdoo

Villager
Looking at the Life Cycle section of the Wikipedia entry I can help clean that up a bit. I have copied and pasted the text here with the documentation or undocumented facts. Nearly all of this was paraphrased from the Kender Handbook from the kencyclopedia. Luckily much of that content made it’s way into the Races of Ansalon product so it’s official now. RoA is Races of Ansalon.


Kender have typical births — the mother has a 9 month pregnancy and usually has one child at a time. [Unofficial www.kencyclopedia.com Kender Handbook]

An average kender mother will have three to five children in her lifetime.[RoA138]

Kender names are chosen from a wide range of sources, such as corruptions of other words, like Cassel from Castle, or recent events or items in pouches, like Bearchase, Lockpick, Fruitthrow, etc. [Recent Events and items foun din pouches is confirmed in RoA 139, but not the corruption of words portion, instead if has naming after an existing relative]

Infants mature at about the same rate as humans. [Unofficial www.kencyclopedia.com Kender Handbook]

As children, they come to rely on family and friends for needs, and the main contributors to a young kender's growth are often called their grandparents, uncles and cousins, regardless of actual family ties. [RoA138]

At around 4 or 5, "kenderkids" begin to take part in their communities and to constantly ask questions. While others may feel this stage in a child's life is the most annoying, it is seen by kender parents to be a beautiful stage in life. Some do not give proper answers, in order to further encourage the child's curiosity. [The term “Kenderkin” is used in Chronicles Kenderkids is not official]

As they age, kender children gain education by hearing stories, desiring to acquire new skills, and playing games. They also begin handling and wandering. [RoA 138/139]

Some kender volunteer themselves to keep the kenderkids amused, and are referred to as "Kender Wranglers." These people have fences and locks on their houses—not for security, but so that the children can climb and pick them if they want. Wranglers who watch over adolescent and teen-aged kender are called "Game Masters." As kender reach this age, not only do they seek out these Game Masters, [Unofficial www.kencyclopedia.com Kender Handbook]

but they also become more active participants in "Kender Moots," social gatherings where the youth can show off their newly found skills in games and demonstrations. As they near adulthood, kender experience intense wanderlust and leave home. [RoA 138]

Most spend their entire adult lives wandering around the world. Most of the population of Krynn has been exposed to the adult variety of kender, and as such have adapted the word kender to mean thief, rogue, or cutpurse. Kender take great offense to these epithets, especially the last. [DoAT]

Otherwise, they build up close friendships during the wandering stage of their lives, at least with people who can understand and cope with them. [Undocumented]

"Settling down" begins between the ages of 30 and 50 years old. This is a gradual process, whether the kender wonders what's happening back home and decides to go visit, or unconsciously wanders back. They may stay for a bit and then go back adventuring. Eventually the traveling will become shorter and the visits home longer until they return to their city for good and buy or build a home. Most kender find a mate during this stage and live together. They also start to informally choose professions and to pass on their talents to the next generation, possibly becoming parents, Game Masters or Kender Wranglers. [Unofficial www.kencyclopedia.com Kender Handbook]

Kender age slowly and often do not realize it is happening, remaining childlike in comparison to other races even when their bodies slow down. [Kender attitude has been referred to as “childlike” in many places, Tales of the Lance calls them a childlike race.”]

When kender die, it is traditional to give something meaningful to their spirit. Funerals are held, at which the people who knew them express their grief, but kender view death as the next great adventure, and don't linger too long on sadness. Kender are usually interred somewhere that was meaningful to them in life or as they died, or simply at a particularly nice spot. [RoA 139]

Graveyards are uncommon, and in Hylo, a deceased kender's body is set sail on a burning raft rather than buried. [Undocumented, in fact in Key of Destiny the Ruins of Kendermore have a graveyard.]
 

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