Are you excited about the Forgotten Realms setting changes?

[Ruin Explorer]

It could be argued that no perspective is objective, but mine is as much as one's could be. It would harm my work to not be so.

It befits anyone discussing things on the internet, and especially someone who is a professional in some sort of research field, to realize that they are not objective (indeed, no-one is, as you say), but rather attempting to be objective. I can respect attempting to be objective, but once you start claiming that you actually are, well, it rings false to me.

Except PM you doesn't keep my hard earned, sensitive research on sales figures and trends private. You and I do not personally know each other, you are not under any binding contracts with me or my company and anything I share with you privately is now in your hands to do with whatever you want. I may as well share the information in the thread because I will breaching NDAs I am under. Besides, even if I did post sources and how I collect market research, you could still state I am wrong or a liar. So either I am telling you the truth and you trust me or you don't believe me. Either way, it doesn't change much with the poll results or the comments about the setting made by the people within the thread.

Indeed, but this is the internet, land of liars and frauds, and worse, people who convince themselves that they're telling the truth whilst bending it so far that most people would think it fiction. To me, given my experience with the wild claims of internet denizens, your entirely unsupported claims are worse than worthless. They actually detract from the quality of the debate, rather than enhancing it. By posting figures that you point-blank refuse to source in any way, shape, or form, you damage the debate, I would suggest. By alluding to secret knowledge you "cannot share for business reasons" you come across potentially as a phoney, and again you damage the quality of the debate because it becomes about your truthfulness, rather than about the subject. I would suggest you do not continue to mention how this is "your business", do not bring up unsourced figures, and do not allude to secret knowledge. It doesn't help, in my experience, at least

Ok, if you feel we could have put the poll together better, then in hindsight now, what would you do differently. Do not actually start another poll, just lay out the choices you would use and critique what is better about yours and what is wrong with ours where they differ.

First you might want to be careful with your language. I'm guessing you're not a native English speaker, because use of the imperative (as bolded) on other people who are cooperating with you, rather your underlings/students, is usually considered somewhat rude. Most people would have put "please" at the beginning of the bolded part. Without please? It sorely tempts me to go post just such a thing immediately

As for criticism, well, first off, I think it's very important to have a where the options are more concise and precise. It's also important to balance the number of negative and positive responses.

For example, I would have had a title that reflected the poll, rather than a general title about how one feels, I would have made the poll more oriented towards facts rather than feelings, and I would have laid out the answers (assuming I wasn't trying to bias the poll ) as follows:

1. I currently play/run the FR and will likely continue to purchase FR products in 4E, and play/run the 4E setting.

2. I currently play/run the FR and will likely continue to purchase FR products in 4E, but play/run the old setting or an extremely variant setting.

3. I do not currently play/run the FR, nor have done before, but am interested in playing/running the 4E FR.

4. I do not currently play/run the FR, but I am an old FR "fan", and am interested in playing/running the 4E FR.

5. I currently play/run the FR, but am uncertain whether I will continue to purchase FR products in 4E.

6. I currently play/run the FR, and am very unlikely to continue to purchase FR products in 4E.

7. I do not currently play/run the FR, nor have done before, and I am not interested in the 4E FR.

8. I do not currently play/run the FR, but I am an old FR "fan", and I am not likely to purchase FR products in 4E.

Just off the top of my head. Duller, no doubt, but more accurate, I think. Feel free to criticise/modify.[/QUOTE]

 

[Hussar]

Exactly, I agree 100% Hussar. I would like to add to what you are saying, that once we have poll results like we do, we can discuss the reasons why the poll is showing what it is. The poll is more accurate than anyone's hunches. Those discussions could lead to valuable insights. It is important to understand what the disgruntled fan base reasons for not being happy, and then look at those reasons that are consistantly coming up.

The problem that I see with this poll is that it's placed on EnWorld - a site which is predominantly older, experienced players. So, any new players are not likely going to be reached by this poll. So, your line 2 comparison doesn't really work since we don't have enough of a sample of possible Line 2 players.

But, I agree, it's a decent place to start.

WotC fanboy. See, he was right. If the game products weren't seeling well, why would they even do a 4E Forgotten Realms? They killed evey other setting that wasn't a commercial success. Why would they give the Realms a second chance? It is my understanding that the Realms novels do quite well. I don't think that these changes bode well for the D&D or novel lines for the Forgotten Realms. If people buy Realms books to read stories set in the Realms, they probably won't be too interested in reading about an unrecognizable Realms. I know that I would have no interest in any post-Spellplague novels. Let's just change the name to Completely Forgotten Realms and be done with it.

The problem is, novel readers care about plot and character. Setting is a far third. Setting considerations aren't a big issue for readers. We read Drizzt novels because of Drizzt, not because of the Underdark. It works for other settings as well. Do you read Conan because it's set in Hyboria or because it's Conan?

Heck look at Thieves World. There's a setting who went through its own Spellplague and 100 year reset. And, after its return, it's as popular as it ever was.

 

[Voss]

Thieves World came back?

 

[Hussar]

It did indeed

And Green Ronin has brought it back as an RPG too.

 

[Fenes]

There's an old saying: Don't trample over your old friends while trying to gain new ones.

The spectacular failure of SOE's attempt to get more subscriptions for Star Wars Galaxies by changing the game in a way that drove off most old players and did not attract enough new players should have proven this.

I fear this will do the same - drive off many of the current fans, while not attracting enough new fans. A successful franchise - the novels - alone is not a guarantee any game will do well.

 

[Najo]

Ruin Explorer,

I am tired of your constant berating me and trying to twist everything I post into something negative. Even though I asked multiple times to please take me positively and that my intentions are honest, you keep implying or directly saying that I am lying, you have attacked my character and intentions and even my ability to communicate through written word. The thread subject is the Forgotten Realms setting for 4e not you having a personal issue with me. I wish you would stop, but since you can't perhaps the moderators can make you understand.

As for your poll suggestions, I invited you to constructively offer them. Likewise I will offer my input as you have asked. My feedback is to remove the play/run as it is a given and to change fence sitting statments like 'likely' as it does not commit the polled poster to a descision. You also want to remove redundant questions like 7 and 8 and combine them into a single question, unless it is important to know if they are an old time fan or not, since they do not currently play/ purchase and they do not plan on playing/purchasing 4e it only tells you that the new setting didn't bring back some old fans who left the realms already.

Simply put, I can not fathom how you have taken my posts so negatively. How my direct and polite requests are turned in your perceptions into manipulative, evil actions. Its sickening.

The internet is not a land full of liars and thieves. It is a place where most people are honest, but occasionally forget (like you have) that real people, with real feelings are behind posts and handles. There are some who lie, cheat and steal, and of course you should take precautions because of that. But I think it takes a criminally minded person to do those things. You need to take a reality check and learn how to treat people with more respect becuase the people online are the people who we meet and interact with everyday. They just are scattered across the world.

Any rate, I wish you well and am sorry that you can't seem to keep chewing on my leg, but hey, that is your progative. Ultimately it reflects badly on you.

 

[Shazman]

There's an old saying: Don't trample over your old friends while trying to gain new ones.

The spectacular failure of SOE's attempt to get more subscriptions for Star Wars Galaxies by changing the game in a way that drove off most old players and did not attract enough new players should have proven this.

I fear this will do the same - drive off many of the current fans, while not attracting enough new fans. A successful franchise - the novels - alone is not a guarantee any game will do well.

Yeah, they are definitely burning their bridges with me with this "nuke the Realms for the noobies" mentality. Of course, WotC already lost most of it's goodwill with me when they cancelled Dungeon and Dragon. The online versions are a joke. Anyway, it seems that most of the customers they are targeting with these changes, (maybe all of the 4E changes), do not know of or care about the Realms or Dungeons and Dragons. Why are they all of the sudden going to "discover" and "fall in love " with 4E and the new Realms? I just don't see it. They are getting rid of loyal customers for the possibility of getting new customers whiich may not be in it for the long haul. It seems awfully short-sighted.

 

[Steely Dan]

Never let the work of one writer wipe away years of established flavour/feel/canon etc from a campaign setting if you do not wish.


-Faction War – not in my Planescape!

-Prism Pentad – not in my Dark Sun!

-Whatever that Ravenloft tragedy was – not in my Ravenloft!

-All that crap from Dragonlance after the War of the Lance – not in my…well, you get it.

 

[Dronehound]

I've got a question. At the end of 2Ed, the Realms were near the gunpowder (smokepowder) revolution mostly due to Maztica and Spelljammer settings. In 3Ed, this was mostly ignored, because many felt that it made the Realms less "iconic", so only Latan and gnomes were using them. But with HYL (hundred years later) jump of the Realms and the death of most mages shouldn't smokepowder weapons have taken a more bigger place? I know that if my players vote that we do the HYN jump to 4Ed Realms, smokepowder weapons will be at least uncommon in states like Cormyr or Waterdeep. And I know one of my players that will want to play a Harper Ranger armed with a pistol named Yon Wajne...

 

[Ruin Explorer]

My feedback is to remove the play/run as it is a given and to change fence sitting statments like 'likely' as it does not commit the polled poster to a descision. You also want to remove redundant questions like 7 and 8 and combine them into a single question, unless it is important to know if they are an old time fan or not, since they do not currently play/ purchase and they do not plan on playing/purchasing 4e it only tells you that the new setting didn't bring back some old fans who left the realms already.

I'm going to ignore the parts of your post where you're complaining about things I really don't care about. It's clear to me that English isn't your first language (e.g. "missed quote") and you're misinterpreting my posts as badly you say I am yours (if you think I'm attacking you, well, heh, good thing I'm not attacking you, I don't even know what you'd think then!), and sadly I can't see any way to bridge that gap (particularly as you take my suggesting that it is exists as an "attack" - Sorry you feel that way, but nothing I can do about). Probably the best thing to do is accept that you find my posts "upsetting", and just ignore anything you regard as an attack. I'd remove it if I knew how, but you take things I regard as calm, non-personal statements as personal attacks (such as "some people on the internet lie therefore I don't believe unsupported claims").

So, on to the criticism:

1) Forcing people into "decisive" statements about a product they've not seen is bad practice. Period. This is precisely why those are there.

2) It is extremely important to know if someone is an ex-fan, because many of WotC's changes hinge of modifying the FR based on the criticism of previous FR players. I can get you a quote on that from a WotC person if you don't believe me.

Thus, if the changes aren't bringing back old fans, then your case that WotC are doing something wrong is much stronger and more rational.

Also, with the bolded part, I don't know what you're talking about, it doesn't seem to connect with anything I've said and appears to represent a serious misunderstanding of what I've said. Can you clear that up?