The Little Raven
First Post
Green Knight said:
Hey, don't bring actual logic concerning how businesses conduct their operations in here. You'll only get painted as a fanboy.
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NOW LIVE! Into the Woods--new character species, eerie monsters, and haunting villains to populate the woodlands of your D&D games.
Are you excited about the Forgotten Realms setting changes?
- Thread starter Najo
- Start date
Hey, don't bring actual logic concerning how businesses conduct their operations in here. You'll only get painted as a fanboy.
Hussar
Legend
Arnwyn said:
Thank you for the condescension.
I am aware of how valid the points are here. However, why is it, whenever polls directly back up a talking point, the polls are completely invalid, but, when polls don't, they should be taken as gospel?
Of the almost 400 people who responded here, a fair chunk are pretty happy with the changes. Of course it's self selecting, but, then again, look at the question? It deals with 4e, it deals with the FR and specifically about changes to FR. Any poll you could possibly make that would give you meaningful results at all would have to be self selecting.
In other words, polling what people at, say, Canonfire, think about the changes would be stupid. So, where would you poll, and what would you ask that would be any more valid than this?
Edena_of_Neith
First Post
It sounds like the hardest hit areas of Faerun were in the Old South region, or what was the Technomancy in the 1st and 2nd IR threads here on ENWorld. We have Lantan, Amn, Tethyr, Calimshan, the Vilhon Reach, Chondath, Unther, Mulhorand, and Thay being the most affected.
I *always* envisioned Mulhorand as being like Zamora (from Conan) with an attitude problem of extremis proportions (some of that Tuigan aggression plus add some Imaskari blood and power, plus a harsh climate of hot and cold, and a nation that is a crossroads of trade.)
The new Mulhorand/Unther, a wasted ruin now occupied by the Dragonborn (with lots of Mulhorandi slaves?) seems appropriate. Let the Dragonborn beware ... the Mulhorandi may be down, but out? Don't bet on it.
Thay? Wizards may be dufuses, but with the Dragonborn south and Netheril north, Thay will be one nation under the wizards (miracle of miracles.) With mile high cliffs and massive fortress cities digging down well below sea level. And dragons ('hey dragonborn, come here, get eaten!')
Unther? Squished. Time for the sahaugin and aboleth to take it over and give trouble to these new Dragonborn.
Chondath? Weren't there beholders ruling somewhere around here? Maybe there are beholders ruling here again. LOL. Better than aboleth ... (beholders eat people, nice and clean. Aboleth dominate them into mindless servitors for life.)
The Vilhon Reach? It's still there. It's just that Here Be Dragons. Forget Volo and his maps. Enter for the peril, the pleasure, and the treasure. Cowards need not apply.
Amn is still around, which means those Knights of the Shield are still around (and trying to take over the Moonshaes.)
I'm guessing Amn took over Tethyr. Too bad. That means Baldur's Gate and Waterdeep (without Khelben to protect it) had better watch out. Amn has no use for Northern Barbarians, except as slaves.
Calimshan? Hopefully, gone back to Djinn rule. Djinn were the only competent rulers in the first place. If the Pasha is history, let the historians write about him.
Candlekeep? Probably untouched. If destroyed, probably all it's information and treasures evacuated. Alaundo might not know of the Spellstorm beforehand, but he *would* know what to do when the castastrophe occurred. (And there are places aplenty on Faerun to store and protect historical knowledge.)
Ah, now ... the Shaar. The western Shaar is a big hole in the ground? Give the illithid, drow, dwarves, aboleth, and others time. They'll fill it up in no time. The dwarves of the Great Rift had BETTER get their act together, if they wish to survive their new neighbor. The halflings of the Chondalwood? If that wood is still there, they had better be *capable* halflings and not Shire types, if they wish to survive enemies north, south, and west.
I'm guessing that Aglarond was obliterated in the chaos that took out Mulhorand and Unther. Where would the survivors go? To that woodland in the middle of Aglarond, of course. Coastal cities are useless when the Simbul is dead, sahaugin and Dragonborn are invading, and hordes of monsters run amok.
Thesk? I'm guessing it bows to either Netheril or Thay (would you want your nation caught between these two powers?) Rashemen? Caught between Thay, Netheril, and the Tuigan (who now have full magic plus their attitude to boot.) Those witches had better have their copies of Dragon #47 (I think that's it) and their berserker warriors ready, or else it's curtains.
Murghom? LOL. Probably declared itself the new Imaskari, after discovering vast magical arsenals and artifacts in the Raurin Desert. Ready to take on Thay, Rashemen, the Dragonborn, the Tuigan, AND Var the Golden all at once.
(grins) Hyperboria, here we come. Heh, this even looks like The Land during the book The Power That Preserves (Lord Foul's Armies and Pillagers running amok everywhere.
It isn't the FR I knew. It's changed as much as FR changed in the 1st IR (which was meant as humor only, of course ... I merely compare the magnitude of the change.) It's a wild, savage FR with tieflings, faery, dragonborn, and hordes of monsters new and strange, aboleth empires, and heaven knows what else, IN ADDITION to all the usual chaos and uproar.
I *always* envisioned Mulhorand as being like Zamora (from Conan) with an attitude problem of extremis proportions (some of that Tuigan aggression plus add some Imaskari blood and power, plus a harsh climate of hot and cold, and a nation that is a crossroads of trade.)
The new Mulhorand/Unther, a wasted ruin now occupied by the Dragonborn (with lots of Mulhorandi slaves?) seems appropriate. Let the Dragonborn beware ... the Mulhorandi may be down, but out? Don't bet on it.
Thay? Wizards may be dufuses, but with the Dragonborn south and Netheril north, Thay will be one nation under the wizards (miracle of miracles.) With mile high cliffs and massive fortress cities digging down well below sea level. And dragons ('hey dragonborn, come here, get eaten!')
Unther? Squished. Time for the sahaugin and aboleth to take it over and give trouble to these new Dragonborn.
Chondath? Weren't there beholders ruling somewhere around here? Maybe there are beholders ruling here again. LOL. Better than aboleth ... (beholders eat people, nice and clean. Aboleth dominate them into mindless servitors for life.)
The Vilhon Reach? It's still there. It's just that Here Be Dragons. Forget Volo and his maps. Enter for the peril, the pleasure, and the treasure. Cowards need not apply.
Amn is still around, which means those Knights of the Shield are still around (and trying to take over the Moonshaes.)
I'm guessing Amn took over Tethyr. Too bad. That means Baldur's Gate and Waterdeep (without Khelben to protect it) had better watch out. Amn has no use for Northern Barbarians, except as slaves.
Calimshan? Hopefully, gone back to Djinn rule. Djinn were the only competent rulers in the first place. If the Pasha is history, let the historians write about him.
Candlekeep? Probably untouched. If destroyed, probably all it's information and treasures evacuated. Alaundo might not know of the Spellstorm beforehand, but he *would* know what to do when the castastrophe occurred. (And there are places aplenty on Faerun to store and protect historical knowledge.)
Ah, now ... the Shaar. The western Shaar is a big hole in the ground? Give the illithid, drow, dwarves, aboleth, and others time. They'll fill it up in no time. The dwarves of the Great Rift had BETTER get their act together, if they wish to survive their new neighbor. The halflings of the Chondalwood? If that wood is still there, they had better be *capable* halflings and not Shire types, if they wish to survive enemies north, south, and west.
I'm guessing that Aglarond was obliterated in the chaos that took out Mulhorand and Unther. Where would the survivors go? To that woodland in the middle of Aglarond, of course. Coastal cities are useless when the Simbul is dead, sahaugin and Dragonborn are invading, and hordes of monsters run amok.
Thesk? I'm guessing it bows to either Netheril or Thay (would you want your nation caught between these two powers?) Rashemen? Caught between Thay, Netheril, and the Tuigan (who now have full magic plus their attitude to boot.) Those witches had better have their copies of Dragon #47 (I think that's it) and their berserker warriors ready, or else it's curtains.
Murghom? LOL. Probably declared itself the new Imaskari, after discovering vast magical arsenals and artifacts in the Raurin Desert. Ready to take on Thay, Rashemen, the Dragonborn, the Tuigan, AND Var the Golden all at once.
(grins) Hyperboria, here we come. Heh, this even looks like The Land during the book The Power That Preserves (Lord Foul's Armies and Pillagers running amok everywhere.
It isn't the FR I knew. It's changed as much as FR changed in the 1st IR (which was meant as humor only, of course ... I merely compare the magnitude of the change.) It's a wild, savage FR with tieflings, faery, dragonborn, and hordes of monsters new and strange, aboleth empires, and heaven knows what else, IN ADDITION to all the usual chaos and uproar.
Vraille Darkfang
First Post
I think the FR is dead.
I really don't like the changes (Actually the philosophy behind them).
A). I never had a problem with the Uber-NPC. At low levels, they were legends to inspire the PC's. At mid-levels, patrons. At high to epic levels, they were equals. The high level (and corresponding bad guys) let me run lots of games where the same threads get moving in & out of the spotlight.
B). Too many gods. Sorry. I liked all the gods & cults (many of which I'd nab for a campaign or 2). Oh yeah. The way they kill off Helm is one of the most idioitc things I own in my RPG Stable.
C). The things they keep telling me that DM's kept having problems with, just don't exist in my experience (which is limited compared to the RPG Base at Large).
With all the changes & design emphasis, I jut don't see this as FR. It might be good, it might be real good, but I can only see it as, a D&D setting called "Forgotten Realms", not "The Forgotten Realms"
I really don't like the changes (Actually the philosophy behind them).
A). I never had a problem with the Uber-NPC. At low levels, they were legends to inspire the PC's. At mid-levels, patrons. At high to epic levels, they were equals. The high level (and corresponding bad guys) let me run lots of games where the same threads get moving in & out of the spotlight.
B). Too many gods. Sorry. I liked all the gods & cults (many of which I'd nab for a campaign or 2). Oh yeah. The way they kill off Helm is one of the most idioitc things I own in my RPG Stable.
C). The things they keep telling me that DM's kept having problems with, just don't exist in my experience (which is limited compared to the RPG Base at Large).
With all the changes & design emphasis, I jut don't see this as FR. It might be good, it might be real good, but I can only see it as, a D&D setting called "Forgotten Realms", not "The Forgotten Realms"
Edena_of_Neith
First Post
Sembia is getting exactly what it deserves.
While the Lord's Alliance, the Elven Alliance, the Dalelands Alliance, and Zhentil Keep made confederations, Sembia stood alone. Wealthy, in a prime location, plenty of seaports, and large regions of fertile cropland, it was a prime target.
The *only* reason Sembia survived this long is no one power dared attack it, because all the other powers would have ganged up to protect it. With the Spellstorm, that no longer applies. Enter the Shade/Netherese, and now Sembia's produce, wealth, and ports belong to them (Sembian merchants will now learn the true meaning of *taxes*, if I know the Netherese.)
I'm guessing Westgate, if it survived, is in collusion with the aggressionist, expanionist Cormyr (the only way to be, in a hostile world. Go, Cormyr!)
I'm guessing that those holier-than-thou elves of Evereska FINALLY decided they just had to cooperate with humans, to fully embrace humans. The first lesson was learned against the phaerimm. Now they have Netheril, and Netheril has OLD Netheril's power, as a neighbor ... and of course Zhentil Keep and it's subjugated cities, and orc hordes, and dragons, and the drow (nothing will ever stop the drow, much less stop their War of Vengeance ... and Eilistraee is no longer in the way.)
Myth Drannor is back (why didn't the Srinshee take over? Talk about refusing to live up to your responsibilities!!) So Myth Drannor, Evereska, Cormyr, and the Lord's Alliance, are in a detente against Netheril. (Hint: It won't work: it took the entire ancient combined might of 4 elven nations with full High Magic to hold Netheril in check. The Shade are coming. When they arrive, better get out of the way!)
Now, where is the Aboleth Empire? Where Luskan was? In the Sea of Fallen Stars? Where the Vast Dale was? Hmmm ...
And what have the Mind Flayers been doing, with all that psionic might, while their magical opponents have been going insane from the Spellstorm? They've not been sitting doing nothing! There should be a great Illithid Empire down there somewhere, with designs on the surface world that make the drow look like nice guys and girls in comparison.
While the Lord's Alliance, the Elven Alliance, the Dalelands Alliance, and Zhentil Keep made confederations, Sembia stood alone. Wealthy, in a prime location, plenty of seaports, and large regions of fertile cropland, it was a prime target.
The *only* reason Sembia survived this long is no one power dared attack it, because all the other powers would have ganged up to protect it. With the Spellstorm, that no longer applies. Enter the Shade/Netherese, and now Sembia's produce, wealth, and ports belong to them (Sembian merchants will now learn the true meaning of *taxes*, if I know the Netherese.)
I'm guessing Westgate, if it survived, is in collusion with the aggressionist, expanionist Cormyr (the only way to be, in a hostile world. Go, Cormyr!)
I'm guessing that those holier-than-thou elves of Evereska FINALLY decided they just had to cooperate with humans, to fully embrace humans. The first lesson was learned against the phaerimm. Now they have Netheril, and Netheril has OLD Netheril's power, as a neighbor ... and of course Zhentil Keep and it's subjugated cities, and orc hordes, and dragons, and the drow (nothing will ever stop the drow, much less stop their War of Vengeance ... and Eilistraee is no longer in the way.)
Myth Drannor is back (why didn't the Srinshee take over? Talk about refusing to live up to your responsibilities!!) So Myth Drannor, Evereska, Cormyr, and the Lord's Alliance, are in a detente against Netheril. (Hint: It won't work: it took the entire ancient combined might of 4 elven nations with full High Magic to hold Netheril in check. The Shade are coming. When they arrive, better get out of the way!)
Now, where is the Aboleth Empire? Where Luskan was? In the Sea of Fallen Stars? Where the Vast Dale was? Hmmm ...
And what have the Mind Flayers been doing, with all that psionic might, while their magical opponents have been going insane from the Spellstorm? They've not been sitting doing nothing! There should be a great Illithid Empire down there somewhere, with designs on the surface world that make the drow look like nice guys and girls in comparison.
Hussar
Legend
The way I see it, here is what I consider to be facts:
A) The FR as a product is not performing as well as it had in the past. We can infer this pretty strongly by the fact that they are changing things. If it was making money strongly, it wouldn't be changed.
B) While there is a strong core of dedicated fans, they aren't numerous enough on their own to keep the line viable. They could buy every book published, but, it doesn't matter. They are certainly important, but, on their own, not bringing in enough money.
So, with these two "facts" you have three options:
1. Keep the Realms more or less unchanged and relagate FR to the backwaters. Drastically reduce the number of new titles per year in order to reflect this. The Realms still get support, but, that support reflects the cash coming in.
2. Try to redo the Realms in a sort of Infinite Earth Crisis way to clear the slate and appeal to both existing fans and bring in new fans who won't be chased away by the bulk of canon that exists currently.
3. Try a RSE to reduce the amount of canon while still keeping the history built into the setting.
IMO, 1 just isn't an option. The novel lines are too profitable to reduce publications to appease core fans. If they continue publishing novels, they have to continue publishing setting books to supplement the novels. It becomes a vicious spiral.
2 isn't an option either. A redo will truly piss off the existing hard core gamers because it completely invalidates their collections. It's also not viable because the novel fans won't accept it. Why should they? They don't care about the setting in the same way that gamers do. It's the plot that's important in novels, not setting.
So, your only real option is 3. And a simple timeline change won't do it either since that won't actually change very much. Most of the big NPC's are immortal (or close enough) and the politics of the Realms shouldn't actually change all that much in a 100 years. After all, what's 100 years to an Elf or a Dwarf?
So, bring on the spell plague. I've yet to see a really convincing fourth option.
A) The FR as a product is not performing as well as it had in the past. We can infer this pretty strongly by the fact that they are changing things. If it was making money strongly, it wouldn't be changed.
B) While there is a strong core of dedicated fans, they aren't numerous enough on their own to keep the line viable. They could buy every book published, but, it doesn't matter. They are certainly important, but, on their own, not bringing in enough money.
So, with these two "facts" you have three options:
1. Keep the Realms more or less unchanged and relagate FR to the backwaters. Drastically reduce the number of new titles per year in order to reflect this. The Realms still get support, but, that support reflects the cash coming in.
2. Try to redo the Realms in a sort of Infinite Earth Crisis way to clear the slate and appeal to both existing fans and bring in new fans who won't be chased away by the bulk of canon that exists currently.
3. Try a RSE to reduce the amount of canon while still keeping the history built into the setting.
IMO, 1 just isn't an option. The novel lines are too profitable to reduce publications to appease core fans. If they continue publishing novels, they have to continue publishing setting books to supplement the novels. It becomes a vicious spiral.
2 isn't an option either. A redo will truly piss off the existing hard core gamers because it completely invalidates their collections. It's also not viable because the novel fans won't accept it. Why should they? They don't care about the setting in the same way that gamers do. It's the plot that's important in novels, not setting.
So, your only real option is 3. And a simple timeline change won't do it either since that won't actually change very much. Most of the big NPC's are immortal (or close enough) and the politics of the Realms shouldn't actually change all that much in a 100 years. After all, what's 100 years to an Elf or a Dwarf?
So, bring on the spell plague. I've yet to see a really convincing fourth option.
HeavenShallBurn
First Post
Even though I've gamed far more in homebrews than published settings I've always had a soft spot for the Realms. As I look through my copy of Grand History of the Forgotten Realms, I think I'll celebrate it as a wonderful final offering of the setting and just consider it the capstone of FR. Everyone else can go boldly into these new Realms but I'll leave here on a high note with a product I like and ignore any future instances of the FR logo.
Vraille Darkfang said:
Hey Darkfang ... looks like our opinions towards FR's npc's, gods and DM problems, and what WotC has decided to do with them are almost identical. On a separate note, the lazy design of the spellplague with its confusing impact on FR (who knew a magical plague could become geographically challenged ) would be depressing if it weren't so humorous.
I have no problem with players who are now looking forward to playing FR. I hope you have a blast. For many long time fans, these changes effectively gut out large sections of the Realms history, flavor and ultimately our enjoyment. After all these years its a tough pill to swallow, but WotC has made it clear who 4E is being designed for, and its not FR's existing fan base.
Hussar
Legend
Devyn said:
You mean, exactly like real world plagues? How much did the Black Plague affect China?
I ask you again, do better. Come up with a way to acheive the following goals:
1. Lessen the canon requirement for playing in the Realms that turns off new players
2. Allow the new core mechanics of 4e to exist in the Realms.
Hussar said:
Substantially, actually. It more or less originated there.
[/QUOTE]
Mystra whacks Cyric. Ao slaps Mystra. Magic changes without massive cataclysms (a weak spellplague would work here, but isn't required by any means).
Given how problematic the ToT was, Ao decides to train Cyric's replacement(s?) for a long time. With Cyric's portfolios in abeyance, the Realms calm down. Nothing much happens (i.e. no RSEs) for the next century/centuries, over which the previously existing canon dies a natural death. Dragonborn originate from Spellcasters tapping perhaps unwisely into the pool of draconic magical power that got stripped from the dragons when they were updated to 4e (either directly or through their descendants).
We pick things up when Cyric's replacements step on stage.
You don't need to attack the Realms with a chainsaw to achieve the goals you list. In fact, I'd call doing so counterproductive in that it earns you nothing while angering some dedicated fans and stripping you of previously designed geography and regional tendencies.
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