Are you glad that Increased Threat Ranges no longer stack?
- Thread starter Kai Lord
- Start date
Kahuna Burger
First Post
A few comments in no order.
Massively upping your crit range is a great option for ranged or finnesse fighters and I never saw a case of it being overpowered for anyone else...
Did anyone actually play it so that multiple magical keen effects stacked to begin with? If you have a magically keen weapon that you keep in a scabard of keen edges than have a wizard cast keen edge on, you still have a "keen" weapon. Just like if you have a ring of invisability and then the wizard casts invisability on you, you don't get the miss chance rolled twice... So the only things we are actually talking about here are imp crit, keen effects from where-ever and some high level PrC abilities.
I'm more amused at people who assume that buying three books full of slight alterations that will also be posted on the SRD is gonna be the default... I look at 3.5 as a source of good alternate rules... the problem will be when new players have bought 3.5 as the default and I'll have to go through a lot of things with them step by step. But forget "choosing not to buy it", they have to come up with a compelling reason for me to buy it, and so far none has been given.
Kahuna Burger
Massively upping your crit range is a great option for ranged or finnesse fighters and I never saw a case of it being overpowered for anyone else...
Did anyone actually play it so that multiple magical keen effects stacked to begin with? If you have a magically keen weapon that you keep in a scabard of keen edges than have a wizard cast keen edge on, you still have a "keen" weapon. Just like if you have a ring of invisability and then the wizard casts invisability on you, you don't get the miss chance rolled twice... So the only things we are actually talking about here are imp crit, keen effects from where-ever and some high level PrC abilities.
I'm more amused at people who assume that buying three books full of slight alterations that will also be posted on the SRD is gonna be the default... I look at 3.5 as a source of good alternate rules... the problem will be when new players have bought 3.5 as the default and I'll have to go through a lot of things with them step by step. But forget "choosing not to buy it", they have to come up with a compelling reason for me to buy it, and so far none has been given.
Kahuna Burger
Ryan Koppenhaver
First Post
dagger said:
Andy Collins posted that the designers had considered making Improved Critical work with all weapons of a type (slashing, piercing, bludgeoning), but had decided against it. He recommended that people try it out as a house rule.
I voted "no opinion."
The rationale behind the change is iffy. Stacking keen/imp crit works best for those 20/x4 weapons, not the 18-20/x2 ones people get worked up about.
I don't think it'll have much impact really. It gets rid of that strange "doubled double" rule. It frees up a feat or an enchantment which, unless you choose something even less effective, will make you a better fighter.
The biggest impact is in pissing people off... but MMORPGs have proven time and again how much people fear change, even when it's adding new content (i.e., "why does class X get all the cool stuff while class Y still sucks?") -- so I'm kind of blase about that too.
The rationale behind the change is iffy. Stacking keen/imp crit works best for those 20/x4 weapons, not the 18-20/x2 ones people get worked up about.
I don't think it'll have much impact really. It gets rid of that strange "doubled double" rule. It frees up a feat or an enchantment which, unless you choose something even less effective, will make you a better fighter.
The biggest impact is in pissing people off... but MMORPGs have proven time and again how much people fear change, even when it's adding new content (i.e., "why does class X get all the cool stuff while class Y still sucks?") -- so I'm kind of blase about that too.
Gargoyle
Adventurer
I voted that I liked the change because I don't think critical hits should be routine for anyone, even higher level characters.
As a DM, I don't think characters built around 3.0 Improved Critical / keen are too powerful; indeed their power waxes and wanes a bit too much for me. Against most opponents, if the dice are kind to them, they are fine; if they run up against enemies immune to crits (undead, constructs) they are much less effective. So PC's using this combo are always weaker in the long run (because they use lower damage weapons), while NPC opponents using it are almost always stronger against the PC's. (Unless your PC's happen to be undead or constructs)
Additionally, I think players who have a blast critting half the time are the same people who dislike it when a monster does so to them.
The option of 3.0 IC/keen is deceptive. Players think they've found a clever way to do more damage, but the fact is that taking it can screw them more often than not. And the DM is often blamed for this, every time an undead or construct shows up.
The only part I dislike is that logically keen and IC should stack. A person who is exceptionally skilled with a longsword (Improved critical) should get some benefit when picking up a keen longsword. I just don't think the threat range should be doubled multiple times. Crits that are too common skew the game against the PCs. I'd rather see it doubled the first time one of these effects is taken, then incremented by one for each additional effect. So I would have voted for a "mixed feelings" option if one were available.
It's easier to throw up a messageboard post than to write a core rule that needs to be clear, however, so I know I don't have all the answers.
As a DM, I don't think characters built around 3.0 Improved Critical / keen are too powerful; indeed their power waxes and wanes a bit too much for me. Against most opponents, if the dice are kind to them, they are fine; if they run up against enemies immune to crits (undead, constructs) they are much less effective. So PC's using this combo are always weaker in the long run (because they use lower damage weapons), while NPC opponents using it are almost always stronger against the PC's. (Unless your PC's happen to be undead or constructs)
Additionally, I think players who have a blast critting half the time are the same people who dislike it when a monster does so to them.
The option of 3.0 IC/keen is deceptive. Players think they've found a clever way to do more damage, but the fact is that taking it can screw them more often than not. And the DM is often blamed for this, every time an undead or construct shows up.
The only part I dislike is that logically keen and IC should stack. A person who is exceptionally skilled with a longsword (Improved critical) should get some benefit when picking up a keen longsword. I just don't think the threat range should be doubled multiple times. Crits that are too common skew the game against the PCs. I'd rather see it doubled the first time one of these effects is taken, then incremented by one for each additional effect. So I would have voted for a "mixed feelings" option if one were available.
It's easier to throw up a messageboard post than to write a core rule that needs to be clear, however, so I know I don't have all the answers.
Last edited:
coyote6
Adventurer
Re: Re: No, don't change it
Maybe they have vorpal mind feeding thundering shocking burst weapons or the like?
(Of course, the real problem with those is the way the activated-on-a-critical abilities work, rather than the crit ranges. I've wondered why a flaming burst weapon never bursts against the undead, or how skill with the weapon [Improved Critical] makes it burst more often...)
drnuncheon said:
Maybe they have vorpal mind feeding thundering shocking burst weapons or the like?
(Of course, the real problem with those is the way the activated-on-a-critical abilities work, rather than the crit ranges. I've wondered why a flaming burst weapon never bursts against the undead, or how skill with the weapon [Improved Critical] makes it burst more often...)
comrade raoul said:
This is an important point, IMO. Even though I don't like many of the 3.5e changes that have been revealed so far, there always seemed to at least be a way to rationalize them in the context of a fantasy role-playing game. This one, though, makes no sense at all. If a fighter has spent a lot of time studying his opponents and learning exactly the right places to strike for maximum effect, it makes absolutely no sense that he would suddenly lose all that knowledge the minute you put a magically sharpened sword in his hands.
Last edited:
Bleys
First Post
Re: Re: Re: No, don't change it
I guess it really depends on your definition of "successful critical". Because I thought it was rather silly that they wouldn't work on creatures immune to crits, I've house ruled it to where they get to roll to confirm, and if that's successful they get the burst damage.
*shrug* Each to his own
And to add to your "scary/broken" weapons, I've always shuddered at the IC, keen, icy burst scythe... 8d4+(bonuses*4)+4d10.... ugh!
coyote6 said:
I guess it really depends on your definition of "successful critical". Because I thought it was rather silly that they wouldn't work on creatures immune to crits, I've house ruled it to where they get to roll to confirm, and if that's successful they get the burst damage.
*shrug* Each to his own
And to add to your "scary/broken" weapons, I've always shuddered at the IC, keen, icy burst scythe... 8d4+(bonuses*4)+4d10.... ugh!
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