Larcen
Explorer
Holy. Moley. What did I get myself into here? I am putting together a Dragon Disciple character and all was well and good when I ignored his Bite and Claw attacks...but NOOOOOOOOOOO, I had to go and see if using his natural weapons were worthwhile as well. What a can of worms I opened. When you throw in strength bonuses, Power Attack, and the Multiattack feat, there are SO many options and combinations to consider that things got ugly real fast. 
Single attacks per round are easy, it's the Full Attack options that got me confused. After reading all the relevant rules I could find (which I can post if requested), one of them REALLY caught my eye:
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Manufactured Weapons: Some monsters employ manufactured weapons when they attack. Creatures that use swords, bows, spears, and the like follow the same rules as characters, including those for additional attacks from a high base attack bonus and two-weapon fighting penalties. This category also includes “found items,” such as rocks and logs, that a creature wields in combat— in essence, any weapon that is not intrinsic to the creature.
Some creatures combine attacks with natural and manufactured weapons when they make a full attack. When they do so, the manufactured weapon attack is considered the primary attack unless the creature’s description indicates otherwise and any natural weapons the creature also uses are considered secondary natural attacks. These secondary attacks do not interfere with the primary attack as attacking with an off-hand weapon does, but they take the usual –5 penalty (or –2 with the Multiattack feat) for such attacks, even if the natural weapon used is normally the creature’s primary natural weapon.
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The above tells me that, hey, if my primary weapon attack (like a sword) is not going to be adversively affected in any way, why NOT take a bite attack as well regardless of any penalties to it? So based on that little rule gem, and everthing else I have read, here is the breakdown.
On a Full Attack my Dragon Disciple can:
A) bite (primary), and claw (secondary), and claw (secondary)
B) 2-handed weapon (primary), and bite (secondary)
C) 1-handed weapon (primary), and bite (secondary), and claw (secondary)
D) 1-handed weapon (primary), and 1 handed weapon (secondary), and bite (secondary)
Note that option D above I will not be considering at all since it gets into 2 weapon fighting.
In all cases the manufactured weapon used will be allowed multiple attacks when the BAB is high enough.
The primary natural attacks never get penalties, but the secondary natural attacks get a -5 to hit, unless Multiattack feat is taken, in which case it becomes -2.
Strength bonuses are x1.5 for 2-handed weapons and creatures with only 1 natural weapon (does not apply here), x1 for 1-handed weapons and primary natural attacks, and x0.5 for all secondary weapons and natural attacks.
Power attack gets twice the subtracted number added to 2-handed weapon damage, but (and this is GREAT) natural weapons, being the exception to the light weapon rule, get the number subtracted added to their damage as well.
So where is this all leading? I need help determining what the best attack routine for this guy would be A, B, or C above. Both with and without powerattacks.
So, any takers on crunching some numbers for me?
DETAILS: He will have a +2 BAB, 20 STR (+5 bonus), Power Attack, and potentially Multi-attack feat too (if it turns out to be worthwhile). I only have 2 feats right now to choose from so Weapon Focus is probably out.
Thank you for reading this far and I hope you can help me make some right choices.
THANKS!
(Oh yeah, I also realize that I am ignoring shields in all this. That's ok, this is complicated enough and I have decided he will not use them.)
Single attacks per round are easy, it's the Full Attack options that got me confused. After reading all the relevant rules I could find (which I can post if requested), one of them REALLY caught my eye:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Manufactured Weapons: Some monsters employ manufactured weapons when they attack. Creatures that use swords, bows, spears, and the like follow the same rules as characters, including those for additional attacks from a high base attack bonus and two-weapon fighting penalties. This category also includes “found items,” such as rocks and logs, that a creature wields in combat— in essence, any weapon that is not intrinsic to the creature.
Some creatures combine attacks with natural and manufactured weapons when they make a full attack. When they do so, the manufactured weapon attack is considered the primary attack unless the creature’s description indicates otherwise and any natural weapons the creature also uses are considered secondary natural attacks. These secondary attacks do not interfere with the primary attack as attacking with an off-hand weapon does, but they take the usual –5 penalty (or –2 with the Multiattack feat) for such attacks, even if the natural weapon used is normally the creature’s primary natural weapon.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The above tells me that, hey, if my primary weapon attack (like a sword) is not going to be adversively affected in any way, why NOT take a bite attack as well regardless of any penalties to it? So based on that little rule gem, and everthing else I have read, here is the breakdown.
On a Full Attack my Dragon Disciple can:
A) bite (primary), and claw (secondary), and claw (secondary)
B) 2-handed weapon (primary), and bite (secondary)
C) 1-handed weapon (primary), and bite (secondary), and claw (secondary)
D) 1-handed weapon (primary), and 1 handed weapon (secondary), and bite (secondary)
Note that option D above I will not be considering at all since it gets into 2 weapon fighting.
In all cases the manufactured weapon used will be allowed multiple attacks when the BAB is high enough.
The primary natural attacks never get penalties, but the secondary natural attacks get a -5 to hit, unless Multiattack feat is taken, in which case it becomes -2.
Strength bonuses are x1.5 for 2-handed weapons and creatures with only 1 natural weapon (does not apply here), x1 for 1-handed weapons and primary natural attacks, and x0.5 for all secondary weapons and natural attacks.
Power attack gets twice the subtracted number added to 2-handed weapon damage, but (and this is GREAT) natural weapons, being the exception to the light weapon rule, get the number subtracted added to their damage as well.
So where is this all leading? I need help determining what the best attack routine for this guy would be A, B, or C above. Both with and without powerattacks.
So, any takers on crunching some numbers for me?
DETAILS: He will have a +2 BAB, 20 STR (+5 bonus), Power Attack, and potentially Multi-attack feat too (if it turns out to be worthwhile). I only have 2 feats right now to choose from so Weapon Focus is probably out.
Thank you for reading this far and I hope you can help me make some right choices.
THANKS!
(Oh yeah, I also realize that I am ignoring shields in all this. That's ok, this is complicated enough and I have decided he will not use them.)
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