Tyler Do'Urden
Soap Maker
Shh! Don't give that away to my players!
D&D General Ars Megadungeon
Shh! Don't give that away to my players!
Hussar
Legend
Sorry, using ars to mean skilled work. The Latin meaning. Far too pretentious. 
As far as the disease thing goes - I was thinking of it as a source of adventure. The players want to break the curse, and need to find a way to do so, while still constantly being pulled back into the dungeon.
As far as the disease thing goes - I was thinking of it as a source of adventure. The players want to break the curse, and need to find a way to do so, while still constantly being pulled back into the dungeon.
Voadam
Legend
So druids are socially considered wizards following the Bjornaer tradition?
@Hussar With regard to your point 5 in the original post. This is similar to something I started doing in my Princes of the Apocalypse campaign, I would activate neighbouring encounters when the party started clearing a room. I did not do it a low levels but when the party seemed to be having an easy time with encounters. Roll d4 when a fight begins in the nearest neighbours and that is the turn they activate. They move toward the fight the following turn.
It make the dungeon seem more dynamic.
I would also have a faction evacuate their section of a dungeon if the bosses are killed.
It make the dungeon seem more dynamic.
I would also have a faction evacuate their section of a dungeon if the bosses are killed.
Yora
Legend
XP should not come (primarily) from fighting monsters. Dungeon Crawling is not an arena fight club, but an exploration game. The character advancement mechanic should reflect that.
Use Wandering Monsters, while some dungeons are exceptions, megadungeons are living environments. The creatures dwelling there have their own lives and don't sit in their rooms for eternity waiting for PCs to find them. Use additional wandering monster checks to the regular ones any times the party does something that could attract other creatures in the area to come investigate, like making loud noises as they are tearing down stuff that's in their way.
Randomize how creatures and NPCs in the dungeon react to seeing the party. Sometimes it's obvious what they'll do, but in most cases they could react in all kinds of ways. Since it's difficult to come up with something on the spot, a simple roll to determine if the monsters attack, become threatening, run away, or try to talk with the party is a very useful tool.
Build shortcuts into the dungeon, which can be doors that can be unlocked from the other side (usually a lower level) or other connections that can only be used by parties with certain spells or magic items. Which you can place as treasures or scrolls deeper in the dungeon. Opening up shortcuts to newly opened areas is both a nice objective for the players, and a nice reward. Especially when you have wandering monsters you'll run into every time you go back to the surface and then back down to continue exploring. Especially especially when monster fights don't offer any meaningful reward to make progress, and are only a sink for resources.
Use encumbrance. A megadungeon is not a fortress assault, but an exploration expedition. The party has only the tools that they bring and that they can find, and going back to buy new ones will take time. (And a whole lot of wandering monsters on the shopping trip and the way back.) The food and water they need to bring also takes up space, as does all the nice treasure that they find. (I recommnd not giving out bags of holding, since that defeats the whole purpose of this.)
Listing all the items by weight and constantly calculating the total is impractical because it's too much work, so abstract things a bit and set the encumbrance levels simply to the number of items carried, with stuff like armor and the like counting as multiple items. Letting characters carry a number of items equal to their Strength scores without getting any penalties is often a good starting point.
Use Wandering Monsters, while some dungeons are exceptions, megadungeons are living environments. The creatures dwelling there have their own lives and don't sit in their rooms for eternity waiting for PCs to find them. Use additional wandering monster checks to the regular ones any times the party does something that could attract other creatures in the area to come investigate, like making loud noises as they are tearing down stuff that's in their way.
Randomize how creatures and NPCs in the dungeon react to seeing the party. Sometimes it's obvious what they'll do, but in most cases they could react in all kinds of ways. Since it's difficult to come up with something on the spot, a simple roll to determine if the monsters attack, become threatening, run away, or try to talk with the party is a very useful tool.
Build shortcuts into the dungeon, which can be doors that can be unlocked from the other side (usually a lower level) or other connections that can only be used by parties with certain spells or magic items. Which you can place as treasures or scrolls deeper in the dungeon. Opening up shortcuts to newly opened areas is both a nice objective for the players, and a nice reward. Especially when you have wandering monsters you'll run into every time you go back to the surface and then back down to continue exploring. Especially especially when monster fights don't offer any meaningful reward to make progress, and are only a sink for resources.
Use encumbrance. A megadungeon is not a fortress assault, but an exploration expedition. The party has only the tools that they bring and that they can find, and going back to buy new ones will take time. (And a whole lot of wandering monsters on the shopping trip and the way back.) The food and water they need to bring also takes up space, as does all the nice treasure that they find. (I recommnd not giving out bags of holding, since that defeats the whole purpose of this.)
Listing all the items by weight and constantly calculating the total is impractical because it's too much work, so abstract things a bit and set the encumbrance levels simply to the number of items carried, with stuff like armor and the like counting as multiple items. Letting characters carry a number of items equal to their Strength scores without getting any penalties is often a good starting point.
Break the megadungeon down into themed areas. It helps the PCs feel like their progressing if now they've reached the area with the lava river and the fire monsters.
Chokepoints are important. I say this because advice to do the opposite (Jacquaying the dungeon) has been well absorbed. But while it's important to have lots of different connections between different areas it's also important to have chokepoints. If everything is just connected to everything else it's hard for players to feel like they are making real progess. Chokepoints help to separate different areas (like those above) and to help the players decide when to progress or not. If this particular passage is the obvious pathway to a different region of the dungeon then the players can decide if they're ready for it, or if they want to continue exploring their current area first.
Chokepoints also help it feel meaningful when you do discover a backdoor entrance into an area of the dungeon which it previously seemed there was limited access to.
Edit: Just to be clear here. I'm not arguing against Jacquaying the dungeon. I'm arguing for what I feel is an aspect that is often overlooked.
Chokepoints are important. I say this because advice to do the opposite (Jacquaying the dungeon) has been well absorbed. But while it's important to have lots of different connections between different areas it's also important to have chokepoints. If everything is just connected to everything else it's hard for players to feel like they are making real progess. Chokepoints help to separate different areas (like those above) and to help the players decide when to progress or not. If this particular passage is the obvious pathway to a different region of the dungeon then the players can decide if they're ready for it, or if they want to continue exploring their current area first.
Chokepoints also help it feel meaningful when you do discover a backdoor entrance into an area of the dungeon which it previously seemed there was limited access to.
Edit: Just to be clear here. I'm not arguing against Jacquaying the dungeon. I'm arguing for what I feel is an aspect that is often overlooked.
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Hussar
Legend
Great points all.
@Mordhau - I think you make an excellent point here and I think we could expand on it. Making maps with multiple paths or making linear maps, both are tools. There are times when either one makes a lot of sense. And both a linear section and a more "maze like" section have strengths and weaknesses. Linear is faster. There's no denying that. If you can only progress through A-B-C, there isn't a whole lot of time spent trying to determine the next path. But, that comes at the sacrifice of choice. Whereas a Jacquay style map has tons of choice, but, suffers from analysis paralysis sometimes, and, unless the players have some way of knowing (or at least thinking they know) the results of a particular choice, it's basically just random, which, well, isn't really much of a choice.
Not that either are bad or good. They are simply tools in the kit. A linear section makes for great "gauntlet" style scenarios. And, as you mention, chokepoints. A Jacquay'd section is fantastic for slowing things down, taking the pace down a notch, or, perhaps for increasing tension with the whole "jump scare" aspect of lots of blind corners and whatnot.
Additionally, on the point about maps - do not forget verticality. One thing that mega-dungeons often suffer from is a lack of up or down. Look at that first level of Ruins of the Undermountain - most of the encounters are on perfectly flat planes. DON'T DO THIS. Add stairs, ledges, drop a floor out, make an exit from a chamber fifteen feet up, if the monsters can climb, hang them from the walls and ceiling. Nothing gets boring faster than a dungeon that is all just perfectly flat rooms on the same plane.
@Mordhau - I think you make an excellent point here and I think we could expand on it. Making maps with multiple paths or making linear maps, both are tools. There are times when either one makes a lot of sense. And both a linear section and a more "maze like" section have strengths and weaknesses. Linear is faster. There's no denying that. If you can only progress through A-B-C, there isn't a whole lot of time spent trying to determine the next path. But, that comes at the sacrifice of choice. Whereas a Jacquay style map has tons of choice, but, suffers from analysis paralysis sometimes, and, unless the players have some way of knowing (or at least thinking they know) the results of a particular choice, it's basically just random, which, well, isn't really much of a choice.
Not that either are bad or good. They are simply tools in the kit. A linear section makes for great "gauntlet" style scenarios. And, as you mention, chokepoints. A Jacquay'd section is fantastic for slowing things down, taking the pace down a notch, or, perhaps for increasing tension with the whole "jump scare" aspect of lots of blind corners and whatnot.
Additionally, on the point about maps - do not forget verticality. One thing that mega-dungeons often suffer from is a lack of up or down. Look at that first level of Ruins of the Undermountain - most of the encounters are on perfectly flat planes. DON'T DO THIS. Add stairs, ledges, drop a floor out, make an exit from a chamber fifteen feet up, if the monsters can climb, hang them from the walls and ceiling. Nothing gets boring faster than a dungeon that is all just perfectly flat rooms on the same plane.
Bill Zebub
“It’s probably Matt Mercer’s fault.”
Sorry, using ars to mean skilled work. The Latin meaning. Far too pretentious.
As far as the disease thing goes - I was thinking of it as a source of adventure. The players want to break the curse, and need to find a way to do so, while still constantly being pulled back into the dungeon.
You should have titled it “Assaying Ars Megadungeon”
Vince_Snetterton
Explorer
You folks should look up the work of Dyson Logos. He has created some tremendous mega-dungeon maps, many of them multi-levels.
His opus, if playing with 5 feet = inch scale, would be 26 feet long if printed. He admits it is impossible to use, but the inspiration.....
His opus, if playing with 5 feet = inch scale, would be 26 feet long if printed. He admits it is impossible to use, but the inspiration.....
I'd heard of it as linear vs circular, but both designs have their uses. A simple linear lair works for a short adventure, but a megadungeon needs to have both. My current megadungeon has multiple entrances and an open design. However, there are strategic chokepoints the builders designed to delay/prevent invaders from fully accessing everything easily. These then create an overall circular dungeon, but with areas of linear access.
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