Asking the Experts: Dragon Level Adjustments

[Mark]

Is there a formula to Dragon Level Adjustments that I simply am not following?

Thanks in advance for any help or insights.

 

[shilsen]

I doubt you're missing anything. There are far too many factors which make up Level Adjustment for there to be a precise formula to it. The Savage Species book does have some guidelines, but the writers admit there that it is quite imprecise and that one should always run some comparisons to work out whether the calculated results are correct. It's best to just take the LAs provided in the 3.5 MM and work with them.

 

[James McMurray]

The Draconomicon has LAs for quite a few dragons (all of them suitable for nono-epic play IIRC). I don't know if a formula can be found in them though.

 

[Mark]

Thanks for the responses. It's a tricky one (especially when the in-house designers say they don't know).

Anyone want to throw out some of the factors to consider, or to consider most importantly, if trying to nail down a formula for at least estimating them?

 

[Epametheus]

Going by savage species rules (if I remember right)..

Typical total ECL for a dragon would be HD + 1 (breath weapon) + 1 (stat adjustments; +2 for the older dragons) + 1 (flight) + 1 (spell-like abilities) + 2 (elemental immunity; +1 if the dragon also has an elemental weakness) + 1 (natural armor) +1 (sorcerer spells) + 2 (multiple natural attacks) + 1 (SR) + 1 (damage reduction).

So HD + 9-11 for the ECL; less than that if the dragon is missing certain abilities (as young dragons often will).

 

[Mark]

Thanks very much! Any other words of caution while doing the figuring from anyone?

 

[Scion]

Remember to run lots of acid tests though, when doing LA for creatures 1+1 does not always equal 2. Like one of the posters above gave a list of pluses, very likely this is not a true total. For one reason the base hd of the race are treated as though they are as good as a level (for dragons this might be accurate to some degree, but not completely, they merely have some of the best hd around). For another when you get up into the +9 range it very well could be that it just isnt worth it in any way, shape or form.. I dont like choices to be easy, I prefer fairly even on both sides.. This means that it shouldnt swing too far either way, LA's of +9 tend to almost always be bad plans, small hd with a few impressive abilities leads to the Paper Tiger Syndrome.. they can hit but they cant take it.

Mainly just trying to say use some caution and test out a whole lot of different variables with various classes and situations. (in other words the formula you want isnt an easy and quick one, it takes time) I hope that it goes well for you!

 

[Epametheus]

Dragons and outsiders make surprisingly bad choices for PCs due to the huge number of dead-weight levels (IE, levels that don't grant HD) that come with them.

Feel free to trim the ECL down, if you think you get a number that's too big. Half-celestial comes out to like a +8 or +10 adjustment instead of a +4 if you go strictly by the rules.

A great wyrm dragon probably is comparable to a 50th level character, though.

Edit: Dragons tend to just come out at an insanely high level, while outsiders are prone to the "Paper Tiger" syndrome that the above poster mentions. The Ghaele eladrin, which is ECL 20 but only has 10 HD is the most extreme example of that from Savage Species, though Mind Flayers are also pretty bad (8 HD, 15 or so levels).

 

[Mark]

Thanks for all of the help and advice!