Assassin Shrouds on Minions

[UltimaGabe]

Shrouds aren't attacks. Neither is a minion dying due to some event which also isn't an attack on the minion.

So if something that isn't an attack triggers a houserule, that disproves a core rule?

Really?

 

[RigaMortus2]

Think of it like the shroud power adds a Miss entry on your attack.
Miss: deal n-1 shroud damage. and since minions ignore miss effects, they take no damage.

You can think of it that way, but it's not a power or written up as the normal power blocks are, so that doesn't matter.

Anyone have the actual wording on the "minions not dying/taking damage on a miss" rule?

 

[lukelightning]

From the DDI Rules Compendium:

"A minion is destroyed when it takes any damage. If a minion is missed by an attack that deals damage on a miss, the minion doesn’t take that damage."

 

[Regicide]

From the DDI Rules Compendium:

"A minion is destroyed when it takes any damage. If a minion is missed by an attack that deals damage on a miss, the minion doesn’t take that damage."

And a shroud isn't an attack.

So if something that isn't an attack triggers a houserule, that disproves a core rule?

Do you have some sort of point or do you just like posting garbage?

Folks, this is a good example of how not to respond in a discussion. Don't do this. ~ Piratecat

 

[Turtlejay]

A shroud isn't an attack, and neither is extra damage from Sneak Attack, Curse, or Quarry.

Yet, if you have Quarried someone, and use a Daily that does half damage on a miss, you don't assume that the halved Quarry damage will kill a minion, do you?

Jay

 

[keterys]

And a shroud isn't an attack.

Nor is it a power that deals damage on its own. It modifies the damage dealt by an attack. That attack deals damage, based on the number of shrouds invoked.

As per the quoted rules. Here's the important part:
"the attack deals 1d6 damage per shroud, minus one shroud if the attack misses"

 

[RigaMortus2]

From the DDI Rules Compendium:

"A minion is destroyed when it takes any damage. If a minion is missed by an attack that deals damage on a miss, the minion doesn’t take that damage."

Thank you...

Before you make an attack roll against the target, you choose to invoke either all your shrouds on it or none of them. If you invoke your shrouds, the attack deals 1d6 damage per shroud, minus one shroud if the attack misses, and all your shrouds then vanish from the target. This damage roll never benefits from bonuses to damage rolls, and is in addition to the attack’s damage, if any.

Based on the wording of each, I think it is pretty clear that you are making an attack, and that attack is dealing damage on a miss, thus the minion wouldn't die. The only reason it is doing the damage on the miss is because of shroud, but you don't get the additional shroud damage unless you make an attack.

An attack is the sum of it's parts.

How does Hammer Rhythm interact with a missed attack on a minion? Or the Fighter At-Will power (I forget the name) that deals Con damage on a miss?

 

[keterys]

Hammer Rhythm does not kill minions.

 

[MrMyth]

Shrouds aren't attacks. Neither is a minion dying due to some event which also isn't an attack on the minion.

The rules have been quoted several times in this thread. Shrouds aren't attacks, but the damage they deal is dealt by the attack. There is nothing unclear about that.

You are totally correct that non-attack damage originating from an attack will kill a minion. If I use a power that slides someone on a miss, and slide a minion off a 20' building, he can die from falling damage.

And that situation is in no way comparable to an Assassin's Shroud. The Assassin's Shroud is not an attack, but it modifies an attack to deal extra damage on a hit, or slightly less extra damage on a miss. If that attack is at the minion, it doesn't deal the damage on a miss, because that is how the minion rules work!

Feel free to rule otherwise, sure! But the rules simply don't support it.

 

[DracoSuave]

*looks it up*
Before you make an attack roll against the target, you choose to invoke either all your shrouds on it or none of them. If you invoke your shrouds, the attack deals 1d6 damage per shroud, minus one shroud if the attack misses, and all your shrouds then vanish from the target. This damage roll never benefits from bonuses to damage rolls, and is in addition to the attack’s damage, if any.

This. It's an additional effect of the attack, granted by the shrouds. It is not a seperate instance of damage. This is kind of a complicated way of dealing additional damage but having it able to apply in zero damage situations.

But, really, the correct way to use shrouds with minions is apply them to non-minions while taking care of minions. If, that is, taking care of minions is tactically sound for you at that time.