Astute Weaponmaster (Balsamic Dragon's PrC revisited)

[MarauderX]

Balsamic Dragon posted up 5 levels of a PrC he made for his campaign, and I thought I would put it up again for some more review after I added another 5 levels and modified it a bit.

Thanks again to all who commented on it before, and any who wish to add a not or two on it.


Astute Weaponmaster

Unlike her unarmed brethren, the Astute Weaponmaster becomes skilled with the exotic weapons used by monks. Because she has mastered many diverse fighting styles, the Astute Weaponmaster can change weapons frequently during combat as a tactic to confuse enemies. In addition, most monk weapons are made from simple peasant tools, so almost anything can be made into a deadly weapon in the hands of the Weaponmaster.

Requirements:

Base Attack: +4
Feats: Combat Expertise, Throw Anything
Special: must travel to three different monasteries to study new forms of combat

Hit Dice: d8

Class Skills: Balance, Bluff, Climb, Concentration, Escape Artist, Listen, Perform, Sense Motive, Spot, Swim, Tumble (4 + Int / level)

Level BAB Fort. Ref. Will Special

1 +1 +2 +2 +2 Monk Advancement, New Monk Weapons I
2 +1 +3 +3 +3 Grab Weapon
3 +2 +3 +3 +3 Master of Many Forms
4 +3 +4 +4 +4 Improvise Weapon
5 +3 +4 +4 +4 Melee Range Increase I
6 +4 +5 +5 +5 New Monk Weapons II
7 +5 +5 +5 +5 Greater Master of Many Forms
8 +5 +6 +6 +6 Monk Weapon Focus
9 +6 +6 +6 +6 Melee Range Increase II
10 +7 +7 +7 +7 Monk Weapon Specialization

Monk Advancement: the Astute Weaponmaster advances as a Monk for the following: unarmed damage, AC bonus, flurry of blows and speed (with the same restrictions) for all levels.

New Monk Weapons I: use the following weapons as if they were monk weapons: short spear, butterfly sword (exotic, as short sword), iron melon hammer (exotic, as heavy mace) and all light melee weapons. Damage applies as per unarmed strike.

Grab Weapon: grab any uncontrolled weapon in an adjacent square as a move equivalent action, or pick up a weapon in your square or square you travel through as a free action, without provoking an attack of opportunity.

Master of Many Forms: when you change weapons in combat, gain a +2 to hit for the next round due to the need for your enemy to react to your sudden change in combat style.

Improvise Weapon: use any small or medium size non-weapon object as a monk weapon for one round. The object must then be discarded (usually because it has broken). Any item with hardness of 1 or better can be used for this ability.

Melee Range Increase I: all melee weapons may be thrown at twice the normal range increment. Those that normally cannot be thrown may be thrown at a 5' range increment as long as the user has Str 13+.

New Monk Weapons II: use all melee weapons as if they were monk weapons. Damage applies as per unarmed strike.

Monk Weapon Focus: gain Weapon Focus for all melee weapons.

Greater Master of Many Forms: as prior ability, but bonus is gained for two rounds.

Melee Range Increase II: all melee weapons may be thrown at three times the normal range increment. Those that normally cannot be thrown may be thrown at a 5' range increment as long as the user has Str 10+.

Monk Weapon Specialization: gain Weapon Specialization for all melee weapons.

 

[MarauderX]

Behold... no comments... it is... perfect...

<bump>

 

[Nifft]

New Monk Weapons I: use the following weapons as if they were monk weapons: short spear, butterfly sword (exotic, as short sword), iron melon hammer (exotic, as heavy mace) and all light melee weapons. Damage applies as per unarmed strike.

BAD. Monk weapons are weak because Flurry is strong. Why do you need to add more Monk weapon types, especially when you're saying that the Monk's "unarmed strike" damage will apply?

Grab Weapon

GOOD. Cool flavor.

Master of Many Forms

Eh. Give a bonus for doing something silly that requires more book-keeping? Lame.

Improvise Weapon: use any small or medium size non-weapon object as a monk weapon for one round. The object must then be discarded (usually because it has broken). Any item with hardness of 1 or better can be used for this ability.

Melee Range Increase I

COOL.

New Monk Weapons II: use all melee weapons as if they were monk weapons. Damage applies as per unarmed strike.

BAD! BAD! Now I can Flurry with a Glaive?!? That's just crazy talk.

Monk Weapon Focus: gain Weapon Focus for all melee weapons.

Not bad...

Monk Weapon Specialization: gain Weapon Specialization for all melee weapons.

GOOD! Weapon Spec. in all Monk weapons would seriously boost their effectiveness.

In fact, I think this class should require Weapon Focus in any two Monk weapons (Sai, Nunchuku, Kama, Singham), and then grant Weapon Spec., Greater Weapon Focus, Improved Critical, and (at 10th level) Greater Weapon Spec. in every Monk Weapon which the PC has Focused in.

Effectively, you'd get great bonuses with crappy weapons. Not a bad trade-off.

It's NOT balanced if you let the Monk's Unarmed Damage increase and apply it to the Monk weapons. Those weapons are designed to be crappy. The Monk's other abilities are cool enough to make up for it.

-- N

 

[MarauderX]

BAD. Monk weapons are weak because Flurry is strong. Why do you need to add more Monk weapon types, especially when you're saying that the Monk's "unarmed strike" damage will apply?

Flavor and availability mostly. It would allow a monk to use any weapon she picks up to be used as a flurry weapon instead of the just the monk weapons. That way it works in conjunction with the 'pick up any weapon' feat that can be used on a battlefield strewn with spears, swords, axes, etc. Note that the damage is always the monk's unarmed strike damage instead of the weapon damage. This tones down the monk from doing more damage per blow with a flurry.

Eh. Give a bonus for doing something silly that requires more book-keeping? Lame.

Not if you are deriving your PC from OA or similar.

BAD! BAD! Now I can Flurry with a Glaive?!? That's just crazy talk.

Is it? Is it really?
Again, the monk would only be doing unarmed attack damage, not glaive damage, and would be able to weild the weapon in a fashion that she can get several strikes out with it in a flurry. Crazy, just maddening.

Thanks for the input, btw.

 

[Nifft]

Flavor and availability mostly. It would allow a monk to use any weapon she picks up to be used as a flurry weapon instead of the just the monk weapons. That way it works in conjunction with the 'pick up any weapon' feat that can be used on a battlefield strewn with spears, swords, axes, etc. Note that the damage is always the monk's unarmed strike damage instead of the weapon damage. This tones down the monk from doing more damage per blow with a flurry.

Here's my basic question: why would a Monk need to pick up a weapon to do unarmed damage? That's the damage that he does without a weapon.

There are many situations in 3.5e where a Monk might want to use a weapon -- to gain 10 ft. reach (very useful), to overcome DR (very useful also), to use some special magical ability placed on the weapon. Monk weapons allow Flurry, but their damage is pegged at what a 1st level Monk could do by himself... thus, the Monk has to choose between doing more damage (unarmed) or whatever advantage the weapon would give him (overcome DR, enhancement bonus, special weapon effect, etc.). Alternately, the Monk can choose to hold a non-Monk weapon like a Spiked Chain, and gain a slew of advantages -- like a bonus toTrip attempts at range, potentially useful since any monk over 6th level has the option of taking Improved Trip.

Allowing a Monk's unarmed damage to function in place of the weapon's native damage blows these trade-offs, because a Monk's unarmed damage is usually more than the weapon's damage. By level 8, a Monk's damage is 1d10. At level 12, he's doing 2d6 -- under your rules, every weapon is suddenly a Greatsword. Giving every weapon Monk unarmed damage is a huge advantage, not a penalty!

-- N

 

[MarauderX]

Here's my basic question: why would a Monk need to pick up a weapon to do unarmed damage? That's the damage that he does without a weapon.

There are many situations in 3.5e where a Monk might want to use a weapon -- to gain 10 ft. reach (very useful), to overcome DR (very useful also), to use some special magical ability placed on the weapon. Monk weapons allow Flurry, but their damage is pegged at what a 1st level Monk could do by himself... thus, the Monk has to choose between doing more damage (unarmed) or whatever advantage the weapon would give him (overcome DR, enhancement bonus, special weapon effect, etc.). Alternately, the Monk can choose to hold a non-Monk weapon like a Spiked Chain, and gain a slew of advantages -- like a bonus toTrip attempts at range, potentially useful since any monk over 6th level has the option of taking Improved Trip.

Allowing a Monk's unarmed damage to function in place of the weapon's native damage blows these trade-offs, because a Monk's unarmed damage is usually more than the weapon's damage. By level 8, a Monk's damage is 1d10. At level 12, he's doing 2d6 -- under your rules, every weapon is suddenly a Greatsword. Giving every weapon Monk unarmed damage is a huge advantage, not a penalty!

-- N

Hmm... perhaps we are reading the same passage the wrong way.

When using flurry of blows, a monk may attack only with unarmed strikes or special monk weapons (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, & siangham). She may attack with unarmed strikes and special monk weapons interchangeably as desired. When using weapons as part of a flurry of blows, a monk applies her Strength bonus (not Str bonus x1-1/2 or x1/2) to her damage rolls for all successful attacks, whether she weilds a weapon in one or both hands. A monk can't use any weapon other than a special monk weapon as part of a flurry of blows.

The PrC is just adding to the list of special monk weapons, and the monk does the same damage whether she was using a glaive or a dagger at the higher levels of this PrC. The special abilities of weapons (tripping, disarming, etc.) aren't affected by the flurry since a monk can use those options with certain special monk weapons anyway.

Also note that only the melee weapons are added to the special monk weapons list, so weapons like whip or spiked chain are still out. Comparing the monks damage output at level 8+ to a fighter of equal level; the fighter will nearly always dish out more damage per round than the monk. Damage isn't a balance problem with the monk, nor is the ability to hit.

Thanks again!

 

[Nifft]

The PrC is just adding to the list of special monk weapons, and the monk does the same damage whether she was using a glaive or a dagger at the higher levels of this PrC. The special abilities of weapons (tripping, disarming, etc.) aren't affected by the flurry since a monk can use those options with certain special monk weapons anyway.

1) Spiked Chain is a melee weapon. It's Exotic, but it's melee for sure.

2) By the books, Monks do not apply their unarmed damage to Monk weapons. That's why Monk weapons basically suck... unless the Monk has a specific reason to use one, he's almost always better off using his unarmed attack.

3) 3.5e's Flurry is a very strong ability. It grants two free attacks at 11th level, which is better than Improved TWF or Rapid Shot. Monks balance this by either using their fists (lame attack bonus) or a lame weapon (which might have a good attack enhancement bonus). Your PrC would break this trade-off.

Also, I'm only fighting with you because I like the underlying idea. It deserves a strong implementation, and you only get that via fighting.

-- N