At what distance do my PC's spot the wolves stalking them?

[Scud.NZ]

I am setting up a couple of wilderness encounters for my campaign's level 1 party, and I thought "How cool to have them stalked, and attacked by wolves". Six grey wolves makes it a level 2 encounter worth 750XP. So, to my question...

"At what distance do my PC's spot the wolves stalking them?"

Can someone confirm how I should run this encounter, as this will be the first time I've had creatures try to sneak up on them, and I am really confused.
This is what I think should happen:

The wolves are trying to sneak up on the party, so for the party to spot them they need to make an opposed Perception vs. Stealth check. Because there are multiple observers (6 PC's and 6 wolves), I think that it come down to the following statement.

IF the best of the PC's Perception checks is less than the worst of the wolves Stealth checks THEN the party fails to spot the wolves sneaking up, and they get to ambush the party with surprise.

Is this the right way to do it? I'm assuming that the wolves are moving slowly, low to the ground through light concealment. Even so, by my reckoning (and without working out the actual maths of it) the wolves do not stand much of a chance at all. Have I missed anything out?

In any case, ambush or not, I am unsure what distance to set up the wolves from the PC's. I kind of worked out the following based on my old 2nd Edition DMG (Why doesn't the 4th edition DMG give me this kind of info?):

Stalking succeeds: Wolves and PC's are placed 1d4 squares apart. Wolves have surprise.
Stalking fails: Wolves and PC's are placed 4d12 squares apart [Normal encounter distance on Moorland].

Whilst using the rules from the old edition provides a quick fix, again, have I missed something in the new books?

 

[James McMurray]

I'd start them at 10 squares if they spot the wolves, 5 otherwise. edit: this is based on the encounter distance section in the DMG (page 60)

For spotting, I'd use the passive perception and stealth scores (or preroll it). Each point a character's perception beats the wolves' stealth by lets them see one extra wolf. That way you negate surprise but still leave a little mystery (unless someone is 6 points higher). If a couple people succeed and others fail, assume there's some overlap on which wolves they see, but also let them see different ones. That way the ones with less than maxed out perception are still useful.

 

[KarinsDad]

It depends on several factors. Are they in the woods? Are they on an open field? Is it daytime?

4E does not have explicit rules for distance and perception.

Personally, I would allow the PCs a chance to spot the wolves from quite a long distance if there is line of sight to that distance. That could be miles, or a few hundred feet depending on situation. But, I would use the Passive Perception rules for this.

However, if the Passive Perception check fails, only then would I allow the wolves to get close and have the players make a normal perception roll. The entire perception skill mechanic in 4E is a bit wonky, so it makes sense to adapt your own set of rules that make more sense to you.

An encounter distance of 10 squares seems a bit close if PCs make their normal perception roll (much longer distance if they make their Passive Perception). I would go more for 20 or even 30 for the normal roll and only have the wolves get in real close if they miss their rolls.

 

[James McMurray]

Also, perception DCs go up by 2 outside of 10 squares. You could use that to differentiate between which PCs see which wolves and how far out those wolves are when spotted.

I'd probably try to keep it as simple as possible, using either passive perception or prerolling it and using the 5/10 split for starting distance. Much more than that and you're putting in too much work for what's likely to be a short and only partially difficult encounter.

 

[Scud.NZ]

Thanks for the replies!

James, Cheers for pointing out page 60. I think 10 squares is a little too close for the terrain I am thinking off [Dartmoor in SW England], more likely the 20 squares. I think you are right that 5 squares is probably just about right for a successful ambush range.

I'm really not keen on Passive Perception. I get the mechanism, kind of, but it doesn't seem right somehow. Let me check my players character sheets. The highest Passive Perception is, rather predictably, the Rogue and Ranger's at 17. The wolves have a +3 Dex bonus, and at more than 10 sq. have a +2 bonus. This means that the six wolves each have to roll 13 in order to reach range 10 [12 is not good enough as the Rogue and Ranger have the higher bonus modifier].

It's been a long time since I've bothered with any probability maths, but I'll try and work it out. Each wolf has a 40% chance of not being spotted. For all six wolves to avoid detection that's 0.4*0.4*0.4*0.4*0.4*0.4, which gives them a chance of 0.4% overall. Seems a little low, but then the party includes two people who have to be very aware of their surroundings.

I suppose that I could give the wolves a +5 Stealth Bonus to represent their predatory nature (training of a sort, I mean why should goblins get a +10 Stealth bonus and wolves a meer +5). So, factoring in that bonus, their chance of sneaking up to range 10 becomes 11.5% (Quite an improvement!)

A second roll would be needed to get closer than range 10, without the +2 bonus for distance = 4.5% chance success. So for six wolves to get to less than range 5 = 0.5% chance. But then, wolves are fairly intelligent creatures, so once they had reached range 10 they might only try to get one or two wolves any closer. That would raise the odds.

KarinsDad: I agree, the Perception rules are very wonky. I like the idea that there is a chance that the players spot the wolves at a long distance. I guess it kind of depends upon what you, as DM, are trying to set up for the encounter. "You spot a line of six wolves on the crest of a hill a few hundred yards away [say 100-150 square in 4th edition terms]" or "Six pairs of glowing eyes appear at the of the campfires light. You hear a deep growling". In this case, I wanted the wolves to stalk the PC's. I figure that the 20+ sq. distances you've both mentioned would be a good place to put the wolves if they get caught.

Thank you both

 

[James McMurray]

Seeing one wolf doesn't ruin the ambush for the others. They could still slink up and get combat advantage for a turn. And if they get seen at 20 squares, they can probably move away pretty easily (maybe with a scorched tail from a magic missile) and then come back later to try again. I think seeing one or two wolves 100' away, seeing another an hour later, and so on through the day would be a much tenser encounter than making one check, seeing all of them, and starting a fight 20 squares apart.

 

[Scud.NZ]

I like the idea about the wolves not giving up. That's just what a natural predator would do.

What time frame would you use between attempts? Certainly, the PC's cannot maintain constant vigilance for very long, so any check is still going to be against Passive Perception.

For the journey across the moor I divided the day up into 6x 4hr watches. How many times per watch should I have the wolves try to sneak up? I'm thinking twice per watch? That wouldn't overload me with dice rolls, and would certainly build the tension (letting the party know which wolves they spotted, keeping them off balance with exactly how many wolves are out there), and it would make setting up camp for the night a much more exciting prospect.

Of course, as darkness sets in...
Camp fire [bright] light extends to 10 squares.
The Moon provides dim light beyond that distance.

It is autumn, so the 7pm to 10pm watch is in darkness, which means that there are three night-time watches. If the PC's have any sense, they will split up the good watchmen leaving a minimum Passive Perception of 15 [4 sleep, 2 watch].

The way I see it is this: The wolves still have to make a Stealth check vs Passive Perception to sneak up to the edge of the fire light.
The wolves have concealment all the way [provided by the dim moonlight & foliage].

However, unless I've missed something, the rules do not differentiate between the wolves attacking during the moonlit night or day. The concealment only provides the opportunity to make the attempt, no bonus/penalty to the Perception or Stealth checks is mentioned. I take it that the -2 Penalty to attack rolls mentioned on p281 PHB is not applied.

Perhaps, I'm just making a fuss, but I would have thought that the wolves would have had a better chance of sneaking up at night than during the day. Maybe just giving the wolves a +2 circumstance bonus is the thing to do. What do you think?

Also, are there any rules about waking up the other PC's. Do they just become aware the round after the watchmen shout a warning, or is it more complicated than that?

 

[Wolfwood2]

Thanks for the replies!

James, Cheers for pointing out page 60. I think 10 squares is a little too close for the terrain I am thinking off [Dartmoor in SW England], more likely the 20 squares. I think you are right that 5 squares is probably just about right for a successful ambush range.

I'm really not keen on Passive Perception. I get the mechanism, kind of, but it doesn't seem right somehow. Let me check my players character sheets. The highest Passive Perception is, rather predictably, the Rogue and Ranger's at 17. The wolves have a +3 Dex bonus, and at more than 10 sq. have a +2 bonus. This means that the six wolves each have to roll 13 in order to reach range 10 [12 is not good enough as the Rogue and Ranger have the higher bonus modifier].

It's been a long time since I've bothered with any probability maths, but I'll try and work it out. Each wolf has a 40% chance of not being spotted. For all six wolves to avoid detection that's 0.4*0.4*0.4*0.4*0.4*0.4, which gives them a chance of 0.4% overall. Seems a little low, but then the party includes two people who have to be very aware of their surroundings.

I suppose that I could give the wolves a +5 Stealth Bonus to represent their predatory nature (training of a sort, I mean why should goblins get a +10 Stealth bonus and wolves a meer +5). So, factoring in that bonus, their chance of sneaking up to range 10 becomes 11.5% (Quite an improvement!)

You know you can just declare that the wolves all rolled 20 on their Stealth checks, right? Or just start them ambushing as close as you want? There is absolutely no requirement for you to roll this out.

Sure the question comes up, are you taking something away from PCs who have invested in high perception scores? I say that the PCs get to make Perception rolls to act on the surprise round, and that rewards them plenty for skill investment in Perception.

 

[Palladion]

You know you can just declare that the wolves all rolled 20 on their Stealth checks, right? Or just start them ambushing as close as you want? There is absolutely no requirement for you to roll this out.

Sure the question comes up, are you taking something away from PCs who have invested in high perception scores? I say that the PCs get to make Perception rolls to act on the surprise round, and that rewards them plenty for skill investment in Perception.

I agree with Wolfwood2 (though his name might indicate a bias towards the wolves, heh). The range on weapons (like the longbow) are not ridiculous anymore, so engagement beyond 40 squares is extremely difficult (PHB 219, maximum range for a longbow) and moving 20 squares even with a run takes over 1 round (faster for the wolves with Speed 8). Give the PCs a reasonable chance to spot the wolves, maybe even a (surprise) round to fire ranged, but then the wolves should be upon them quickly.

 

[Ganadai]

Personally, I would roll Stealth checks for each of the wolves and compare the lowest stealth check to the highest PC passive perception. If all the wolves stealth checks beat the highest PC's passive perception then start the wolves 5 squares away and give them a surprise round. If the PC's perception check beats the wolves stealth check then place the wolves a number of squares equal to two times the difference between the checks with no surprise round.

Example:
PC's highest passive perception: 17
Lowest wolf stealth check: 11
17 - 11 = 6
6 * 2 = 12
The PC's spot one wolf at 12 squares (60 feet) away.