At what point do players know they're fighting Minions?

[unan oranis]

As hilarious as this may be to some, I don't think ANYONE in the thread has said "there is only one way to do it"

I'm thinking of the blind men feeling an elephant...

In my head, saying "these are minions, these aren't" takes a huge amount of strategy out of the combat.

I believe that if you are willing to tell players about either of these things, you might as well spoon-feed the entire combat to them.

Maybe I don't understand what you are saying, but to me it comes across as:

"Doing x is detrimental to the quality of the battle, y is superior"

I believe x has it's place in some battles, y in others, neither superior.

 

[Flipguarder]

Good job ignoring "in my head" and "i believe"

The point of those quoted portions is my reasoning for not explaining to my players whats a minion and whats not.

I do believe one is generally superior to another, that in no way means its the only way to do things.

 

[DracoSuave]

Yeah, a boatload of us have played the game for over 30 years now. yadda yadda yadda



Enjoy mopping up minions after the kobold wyrmpriest and kobold dragonshield drop??? How old are your players?

I have no clue where you think that mopping up minions is actually a lot of fun for most people. Easier? Sure. Less thought intensive? Yup. Maybe it was a lot of fun when 4E first came out and it was a new novelty.

But a lot of fun???

When you have a subset of players who enjoy a certain mechanic, and when you have a game based around power fantasy showing one particular aspect of power fantasy... i.e... mopping up mooks...

You actually have players in your group that say "Oh boy, minions. Watch me mop them up!!!"

Seriously?

...insulting that player base undermines your ability to speak on their behalf or even express yourself as an authority on what is good for a game that is obstensively driven towards them.

For your information, I've played and ran games that have gone beyond the hack-and-slash style roleplay of D&D.

For example, Feng Shui, 7th Sea, Legend of the Five Rings RP, Scion, Old World of Darkness, New World of Darkness.

These are considered more mature games than D&D, with a target audience being older than the young teens D&D has traditionally gone for.

Please notice:

Every game there has a 'minion' like mechanic. In fact, Feng Shui, 7th Sea, and Scion have 'minion' as the base assumption for most of the combat in the game, and tougher opponents are the exception, not the rule.

So, pardon me if I happen to believe that -my- playgroup and gamers I have played with over the years--all of whom have been playing D&D for a long time, have migrated to other more mature games, and have come back to D&D 4th edition--find enjoyment in a game mechanic that has been expressed fully in other games that they've also enjoyed similiar mechanics in.

The minion mechanic is fun for a subset of players as it is. It does it's job well, and those players are not intellectually deficient or in any way 'immature' for enjoying that mechanic on a visceral level.

So, for future reference, please stop insulting a large part of the game's player base when you portend to speak as an authority about what is good or not for a game they enjoy. All you prove by doing so is show that you don't grok it. My players do. I will trust their opinion on the matter over yours.

 

[JiffyPopTart]

You actually have players in your group that say "Oh boy, minions. Watch me mop them up!!!"

I'm absolutely certain a great many players in the 3e days (notice no minion mechanic) were chomping at the bit for that rare moment where they could get themselves swarmed by kobolds or goblins that they could unleash an unholy great cleave or expanded fireball and utterly destroy an undergunned group of foes. Pretty much the entire purpose of Great Cleave was to have that one epic moment every so often.

It's like having a bite of candy. If that's all you ate all day it would make you pretty sick but every once in awhile its a sweet treat.

So, perhaps YOUR group doesn't care for that sort of thing but there are lots of groups that would. I know MY group enjoys it.

If you are keeping a census we are all married mature early-to-mid 30somethings with real lives we like to set aside once a week to so we can whoop some a**, loot some gold, slay some maidens, and drink some beers.

DS

 

[unan oranis]

Maybe it was a lot of fun when 4E first came out and it was a new novelty.

This is exactly how I feel about always obfuscating which monsters are minions and which ones are not - fun the first couple of times to "scratch and reveal", but quickly stopped doing it for me and my players.

 

[unan oranis]

Good job ignoring "in my head" and "i believe"

Is "in my head" and "i believe" supposed to mean something other than "I stand behind the following opinion"?

The point of those quoted portions is my reasoning for not explaining to my players whats a minion and whats not.

I do believe one is generally superior to another, that in no way means its the only way to do things.

Right, you believe one is superior, and the other is "spoon-feeding" aka "you are a big dumb baby for doing it that way".

That is, in fact, you saying that one way is right and one way is wrong.

"I believe" that you have been unfair to the viewpoints expressed by other people.

 

[Flipguarder]

Ok lemme put it in simple, undeniably inoffensive language.

I have a way I do things, I have reasons for doing things the way I do. I take no issue with differing views and am FAR more interested in hearing the reasons for differing views than convincing others that I am right. I, of course, believe I am right. But at the end of the day, that should not prevent any of us from having a reasonable discussion of the topic.

/end holding of the hand

However, I am not interested in people declaring me an obvious troll, and putting words in my mouth in an attempt to undermine my points.

If people would more communicate on the topic rather then who is saying it this would be a better thread.

 

[DracoSuave]

I'm absolutely certain a great many players in the 3e days (notice no minion mechanic) were chomping at the bit for that rare moment where they could get themselves swarmed by kobolds or goblins that they could unleash an unholy great cleave or expanded fireball and utterly destroy an undergunned group of foes. Pretty much the entire purpose of Great Cleave was to have that one epic moment every so often.

WHIRLWIND ATTTAAAAAACCCCCKKKKKUUUUUUU!

My group used to have kobold bowling in 2e....

It's like having a bite of candy. If that's all you ate all day it would make you pretty sick but every once in awhile its a sweet treat.

So, perhaps YOUR group doesn't care for that sort of thing but there are lots of groups that would. I know MY group enjoys it.

This. It depends on group/campaign/stuff. Not every game wants mindflayers or flying airships either. That doesn't make these bad mechanics, just innappropriate.

There is a HUGE difference.

If you are keeping a census we are all married mature early-to-mid 30somethings with real lives we like to set aside once a week to so we can whoop some a**, loot some gold, slay some maidens, and drink some beers.

DS

YES WHOOP THAT ARSE! LOOT THAT GOLD! SLAY THOSE...

...wut?

 

[KarinsDad]

It's like having a bite of candy. If that's all you ate all day it would make you pretty sick but every once in awhile its a sweet treat.

Ok, I can understand this. I don't see a lot of cheering at my table when a minion falls. More of a "good job". It's less of an accomplishment. It rates about on par with hitting any foe.


I see a lot of cheering at my table when the BBEG falls, or a PC saves another PC, or even when a foe is pushed into a pit. It's the more major and/or atypical accomplishments that get the most enjoyment.

Maybe it's because the PCs are now at Paragon level and have several ways to handle minions, but minions are more or less a non-entity when they show up.

 

[Garthanos]

For me
A minion is the guy/monster who Avandra/Fate doesnt favor... its largely a big mystical luck thing and you cant look at them and know they are minion and doomed ... well most people cant a couple mystics might be able to tell who movers and shakers are and get wigged out seeing a whole party of them but I am a fan of Wheel of Time. ;-)
The minions have a level which is indicative of skill and competence

I allow minions a bloodied state too, so I am operating on different minions than default. (When bloodied they look like they don't want to be here or several variants of this ... but so do most non minions who are bloodied).