At what point do players know they're fighting Minions?

[keterys]

Or go it the other direction. Minions are most everybody. They're the joe normals who take a dagger in the gut and actually die.

It's everyone else that's bloody strange

 

[Benlo]

I think my players, particularly my brother with his wizard, can appreciate some cannon fodder, but they would be awfully mad if it was all they fought. I toss a couple into most encounters, but they're usually not much more than 30% of the forces. When I add more, I make them VERY delicate. Hell, I've had my solos step on them or throw them if they get in their way. We usually have one or two large encounters, rather than several more small ones, though, in our play sessions, so if it was a "wandering monster" scenario in a dungeon, it would be a little different.

Minion recognition(Or lack thereof) did lead to a funny moment with a player, though.
*Rolls a fancy encounter power*"Aw right, I crit on the guy in the doorway!"
"It died."
"...wait, what?"
"It... You brought your axe down and-"
*laughing* "No, no, it died. Simple as that."
I made it up to him with his next kill, but that became a running joke, considering we usually add colorful descriptions to actions, from saying "You fingers scrape along the edge, and you force yourself up on the ledge, ready to keep on fighting", rather than "You made the jump", so my "It died." caught our group off guard.

So, long story short(too late), I might say the minions have lackluster gear, or that they "don't look particularly sturdy, but the murderous glare they've met your eyes with shows they don't intend to walk away, outmatched or not", things along those lines. I don't outright call them minions, I just contrast them with, say, the mighty Dragonborn backing up this wave of Kobolds.

 

[DracoSuave]

Or go it the other direction. Minions are most everybody. They're the joe normals who take a dagger in the gut and actually die.

It's everyone else that's bloody strange

This, oh god THIS.

Minions are not sickly, they're NORMAL in a world of heroes.

 

[Garthanos]

This, oh god THIS.

Minions are not sickly, they're NORMAL in a world of heroes.

As I said its a "luck thing" but due to number of area effect powers at higher levels people need to use more minions and resist clumping them "real soldiers don't clump" - > area attacks are too common irl too.

.... but I like seeing Conan/Elric on heaps of enemies bodies

So if your players just know the enemy is not "significant" it can be OOC (doesnt bother everybody to have OOC information) or maybe it is fun if you allow single target and encounter/daily powers a compensation when they take down one instead of a significant enemy... I dont know a chance of recharge... this could address the predictabiliy factor for such powers as well. As both are likely to bother the same types of players.

 

[Zinovia]

I am now inspired to have a BBEG shout, "Get them, my minions!". That'd be epic.

Minions can work in a lot of ways and increase the fun, however they are used. I tend to use some clues in the description that suggest they might be minions, but don't tell the players "They're minions". But there's more than one way to do things. Let's steer clear of badwrongfun territory.

Man Who Enjoys Thing Informed He Is Wrong

 

[UltimaGabe]

Why?

Doesn't the minion have armor and weapons and isn't it threatening?

When did this concept of "the PC is omnipotent" suddenly come in. A monster used to be a monster. Now, it's a collection of stats that somehow mystically inform PCs that one monster is better or different than another. Should we tell which monsters are Elite not on their fighting skill, but on their weapons? Should we tell which monsters are Controllers and Skirmishers and such not on the powers and tactics they successfully use, but on their looks?

Doesn't a Bugbear Minion just plain look tougher than a Goblin Cutter??? The Bugbear Minion doesn't know that it is a minion. If it did, it would never come out and fight. It should be tough looking and confident until the moment the PC Rogue quickly cuts its throat and it falls in a heap on the ground.

You seem to be missing one fundamental truth about minions. Whether you like it or not, the following statement is 100% truth in 4th Edition:

Minions ARE WEAKER AND LESS THREATENING than non-minions of the same race.

Minions, no matter how you want to imagine them, go down in one hit. Non-minions, typically, don't. A single hit point of damage from the weakest weapon will kill a minion, no matter what. Also, minions deal very small, static amounts of damage (typically). You cannot argue that this is not truth.

If you're facing two kobolds, one of which has a single hitpoint and does the exact same small amount of damage with each attack, why should he not look different than another kobold that has thirty hitpoints and deals variable damage? Does a longsword look any different than a bastard sword? It should. If you're facing two opponents, one with a longsword and one with a bastard sword, is it wrong to know which is which so you know which is capable of more damage? If one enemy has thirty times the hit points of another enemy, is it wrong for the player to have some sort of a visual cue to tell them this?

You seem to be assuming that there's no difference between a minion and a non-minion. As I stated earlier, this is false. One is substantially weaker than the other. How is it in any way a bad idea to clue players in to the fact that one of their enemies is obviously weaker than another?

 

[DSlash]

In my game, I usually hide the fact of which monsters are minions. My miniature collection isn't very large, so I don't have very many doubles. The players can't tell just from eyeballing the field. If the players actively made a knowledge check or even some sort of perception check, I would probably let them know that the monster they're currently examining is indeed a minion. I usually consider minions rookies in my game. Can a veteran tell the difference between his equal and a rookie? A lot of movies and games seem to think so.

When I first heard about monster knowledge rolls in 4e, I immediately hated the notion. It sounded stupid to me. Now, the more I see other DM's put a different perspective on it, the more I don't mind it. Maybe in some cases it doesn't work, but there's a lot of situations where it does work and rewards what the character might know rather than what the player knows.

 

[Infiniti2000]

The only reason for not identifying minions explicitly is because the group as a whole enjoys it when a PC mistakes a minion for a non-minion.

Yet, I haven't seen anyone in this thread actually say that or provide an example of such a case that shows the players are having fun. I guess it would be fun in the same way that slapstick comedy is fun (e.g. Three Stooges), but other than that I don't see the value. I also don't get the sense that a lot of people's games have a slapstick flavor, so I'm not sure I buy that argument anyway.

 

[DracoSuave]

When I first heard about monster knowledge rolls in 4e, I immediately hated the notion. It sounded stupid to me.

That's okay, I always thought it was stupid playing with D&D vets who were always 'Hey, look, troll country. Get the fire and acid!' 'How do you KNOW that?' 'Um...'

Then it occured to me... had no one beaten a troll in this world? Is it not plausible that the bordertown that fought off trolls might have knowledge of their weaknesses in warding them off?

Would not SOMEONE have heard of this?

Monster knowledge is a good way for me to say 'You know that' vs 'You don't know that.'

 

[Mallus]

Determining an opponent's Minion status could be part of the tactical challenge presented by the combat, but it's not neccessarily a part of it. It depends on the encounter's design. In some cases, having enemy Minion status revealed from the start can make for a more interesting and challenging combat.

Consider the nice game of chess... it's tactically rich even though the strength of each individual combatant on the field is plainly visible.

When I'm running 4e, I usually make it clear which opponents are Minions.