At what point do players know they're fighting Minions?

[DracoSuave]

Looking at other pictures of minions in the MM I have to say no, that never occured to me. There are just as many pictures of tough and deadly looking minions than there are of frail and weak looking minions. So it clearly seems as if there is no automatic recognition intended.

This is because minions are not frail nor weak.

They are very capable combatants provided they are going up against the rank and file of your standard human army: level 1 minions.

However, your PCs are superheroes in the fantasy realm, and these soldiers are no more of a threat than the soldiers that Conan dispatches with his axe and skill.

A cartoon example: Wolverine is mighty. The police with their laser guns shooting at him are minions. Are they weak or frail? No. Wolverine is superpowered.

 

[Flipguarder]

Sorry Draco but that simply doesn't hold water.

You can't argue "they look the same " with "pcs are superheroes" because that doesn't at all address the issue he brings up

His point is: If they were meant to look weaker than other members of their own race, they would look weaker in the illustrations.

Your post simply doesn't address that argument.

 

[DracoSuave]

Sorry Draco but that simply doesn't hold water.

You can't argue "they look the same " with "pcs are superheroes" because that doesn't at all address the issue he brings up

His point is: If they were meant to look weaker than other members of their own race, they would look weaker in the illustrations.

Your post simply doesn't address that argument.

I've already covered that.

They don't look weak. They look normal for their race. They are the baseline.

But, a strangler will have a chain in hand and the skill to use it. A hexmage will be holding onto a stick with blacksmoke coming from it created by magic. A dragonshield will be a little more jumpy, and will try to hide behind his shield.

Instead of describing minions as 'weaker and pathetic' I describe normal monsters as 'has a trick or two' or 'radiates cold' or whatever.

Minions are baseline, and I make the normals (if they can be discerned) special. Notice I don't say ALL normals don't look like minions; but in most cases it's obvious.

Also notice: If in most cases it's obvious, then when I -do- hide a normal in the minions, (some lurkers) then it's that much more interesting for the players.

In the two encounters above, you have more minions than non-minions. Why would I treat them as worthless? They're the majority. They're the norm. Just like the PCs are the paragons of their races, those that are a step above, so are non-minions above the normal combatants of their race.

The world already has that view for PCs, why not use the SAME theory in regards to monsters?

 

[Flipguarder]

hey, all I was saying is that your post doesn't reflect a response of the portion of the post you quoted. I've read it 5 times now... And I only point it out because you are usually much more on top of things like that.

 

[DracoSuave]

hey, all I was saying is that your post doesn't reflect a response of the portion of the post you quoted. I've read it 5 times now... And I only point it out because you are usually much more on top of things like that.

It's a point I've already made in the thread, re: Privates vs Captains, and their different hats.

Monster knowledge checks yo. Monster knowledge checks.

Personally tho, I think that a lot of the 'keep minions hidden' mentality is related to the 'I don't like minions' mentality.

Which is really a case of 'minions are not appropriate to my game' mentality.

Which is fine.

If you don't like minions, don't use them. Then you have no problems. They're just tools, and you can choose not to use them if they aren't fun... but making them 'secret' or 'takes three hits' or whatever to make them 'more of a threat' is absolutely failing to understand the point of the tool. It's like using a chisel, and saying 'Well, this is a lousy drill bit' so you start to twist it into a shape it was never meant to be used in.

All I am saying is... just use drill bits if that's the tool you need.

 

[Flipguarder]

My pov is that I like variety and options. Minions are optioins, and using them is variety. Your point that when you use them and hide it, its more interesting because you often don't do that. That's essentially my point. Mix it up, don't let yourself do the same thing consistently just because its "suggested", "makes sense" and "easier"

 

[DracoSuave]

My pov is that I like variety and options. Minions are optioins, and using them is variety. Your point that when you use them and hide it, its more interesting because you often don't do that. That's essentially my point. Mix it up, don't let yourself do the same thing consistently just because its "suggested", "makes sense" and "easier"

Well yeah, but my point is, when you hide it, it better be for a better reason than 'mystery is good'. When the big reveal is 'surprise, it goes down in one hit' that's an anti-climax, and anti-climaxes are not exactly the best way to resolve the majority of monsters in a given encounter. Instead, put the focus on the mystery of those -other- guys... make THEM the mystery. But to do that, you have to focus on them a bit.

Make the mystery about what they -can- do, rather than they can do something at all.

 

[Flipguarder]

Well yeah, but my point is, when you hide it, it better be for a better reason than 'mystery is good'.

Challenge is good?

I don't know, I guess we just differ on this topic. I feel like being a good DM is just as much about making the players BE awesome as it is making them FEEL awesome. Pushing players to use their entire mind while playing is more admirable and rewarding to me than throwing a bunch of fodder for them to waste their time on. There is a time and place for fodder, I just think its less often then not.

After all, a taco is good. But a taco you worked 10 minutes to get is better.

 

[Nytmare]

After all, a taco is good. But a taco you worked 10 minutes to get is better.

I don't know. I've had some mi-T-fine free tacos in my time.

 

[Garthanos]

I like/love minions and still don't feel great reason to make them obviously different... I do like mystery status. Somebody mentioned an idea I find intriguing (perhaps used sparingly?) of having the composition of groups to be differentiated by player character actions ... if they used an non-multi encounter or a daily on one then it isnt a minion.