At-Will damage scaling too slow?

[keterys]

That DPR include missing? 58 at level 29 with a 50% miss chance would mean an at-will damage of 116 which is quite a lot.

And if it's not factoring in missing, a rogue can do 20 damage at level 1

 

[awesomeocalypse]

Yes, that dpr includes missing (remember, most strikers will miss much less than 50% of the time), as well as crit damage (some avenger builds are built entirely around critting, either with huge crit ranges and tons of multi-attacks, or lots of additional attacks that trigger each time they crit, thus giving them a high chance of critting again that round). It is surprisingly doable, even without a ton of cheese, using a ranger, rogue, sorcerer or barbarian. Avengers and warlocks are trickier, but can definitely reach it with a little effort.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

That DPR include missing? 58 at level 29 with a 50% miss chance would mean an at-will damage of 116 which is quite a lot.

And if it's not factoring in missing, a rogue can do 20 damage at level 1

DPR usually does include the to-hit calculation. I think 60 DPR at level 30 with at-will is not really all that hard to get. Check out the charops board, I've seen builds well over 100 at-will DPR at 30. Of course pretty much all of that sort of damage is based on high static bonuses and/or special damage outputs like bloodmage etc. They have nerfed a number of the really crazy ones, but I just don't think you're going to see reckless and bloodclaw being nerfed any time soon. Its a pity because I agree they're just not really good for the game. IAoP by itself wouldn't be such a big deal, its only 2 extra damage, which is GOOD, but you could live without it. When you start stacking all that stuff it does get more and more imbalanced vs someone with other types of items though.

I guess the answer really is to just not put reckless/bloodclaw weapons in your game. I don't. I really don't care what my PCs are doing vs some other game someplace. Honestly though it isn't so much a matter of the fact that those items are so good as that they crowd out EVERY other option.

 

[awesomeocalypse]

As an example of how utterly doable those dpr benchmarks really are, here's a dragonborn dark pact warlock someone (not me) on the WotC boards threw together that does 65 dpr by level 20 using eldritch blast. I repeat: a frikkin warlock could clear the dpr benchmark for level 30 by the time they hit level 20. A ranger or sorcerer could do far better than this in their sleep.


Level 20 Dragonborn (frost) Dark pact warlock/ Dark Reckoner


17/15/13/10/10/8 starting array

24 Cha, 22 str, 14 dex, 11 con, 11 int, 9 wisdom
The paragon path only adds 1d6 on your Curse damage, otherwise this build also works with Fey pact


I think that you could easily take rogue MC and go Daggermaster for a nice critrate, but I won't.


Feats:
Arcane implement proficiency (Light blade)
Dual implement caster
Curse' of Io's blood: 1+Str mod damage when bloodied
Implement expertise (Rod) +2 att
Draconic spellcaster +2 attack bonus to frost
Arcane admixture (frost, eldritch blast)
called shot +5
Winter touched
Lasting frost
Nimble blade
Dragonborn frenzy
Weapon focus (dagger)
Empowering shadows


Items: level 21 item: Ankhmon's bracers
level 20 item:+4 subtle dagger
lvl 19: +4 subtle dagger
125,000 gp
gloves of ice 9000
Shadow warlock armor 20, 25000gp or 5000gp
Siberis shard of the mage (paragon)


Eldritch blast (Charisma)


To hit 10(lvl)+7(Cha)+4(main implemement)+2 expertise+2 draconic caster+2 CA+1 prime shot+1 (when bloodied)+1 nimble blade: +30 to hit
10% miss chance against 32 Reflex


Damage:


Damage: 5.5 eldritch blast+7 (cha)+7 (curse)+5.5 (ankhmons bracers)+5 called shot +4 main hand implement+4 offhand implement (DiS)+ 4 subtle property (main) +4 subtle property (offhand) + 5 (lasting frost) +2 (cloves of ice) + 7 (curse of Io's blood) +2 weapon focus +2 dragonborn frenzy +3 Siberys shard + 3.5 (dark reckoner PP)+ 1 empowering shadows= 71,5 Average damage


Critical: 102 damage

Dpr: 65.88

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

As an example of how utterly doable those dpr benchmarks really are, here's a dragonborn dark pact warlock someone (not me) on the WotC boards threw together that does 65 dpr by level 20 using eldritch blast. I repeat: a frikkin warlock could clear the dpr benchmark for level 30 by the time they hit level 20. A ranger or sorcerer could do far better than this in their sleep.

Damage: 5.5 eldritch blast+7 (cha)+7 (curse)+5.5 (ankhmons bracers)+5 called shot +4 main hand implement+4 offhand implement (DiS)+ 4 subtle property (main) +4 subtle property (offhand) + 5 (lasting frost) +2 (cloves of ice) + 7 (curse of Io's blood) +2 weapon focus +2 dragonborn frenzy +3 Siberys shard + 3.5 (dark reckoner PP)+ 1 empowering shadows= 71,5 Average damage


Critical: 102 damage

Dpr: 65.88

That's not really what I consider "doable". "Possible", yes. Very, very specific? Yes.

I already know that my DM would smack me upside the head if I tried to stack the damage from the properties of two subtle weapons together. It hadn't even occurred to me that such a thing was possible. Although I see it is probably accurate by the RAW, it certainly doesn't appear RAI to me. The Lasting Frost combo is considered to be universally cheese by my group and my DM is getting close to banning it, since nearly half the group has it.

In these situations, I like to compare to the "average". Which, to me is when someone who knows the rules decently but doesn't have any control over his magic items and hasn't gone for any non-obvious cheese(combos like Lasting Frost and picking non-optimal races or multiclasssing for the feats they provide). Also, going for an even 18/18 split in the two prime stats for your class. Even this level of optimizing is considered pretty much powergaming. But an acceptable level of powergaming.

In this situation, the warlock would instead be closer to:

Level 20 Tiefling Dark Pact Warlock

To hit 10(lvl)+6(Cha)+4(main implemement)+2 expertise+2 CA+1 prime shot: +25 to hit
35% miss chance against 32 Reflex

Damage: 5.5 eldritch blast+6 (cha)+7 (curse)+4 main hand implement+4 offhand implement (DiS)+2 weapon focus+ 3.5 (dark reckoner PP)+ 1 empowering shadows=33 damage

Although, I understand that the level of "average" on the CharOp boards is a lot higher. This is about as powerful a character as anyone in my group would have made(and did make) until 2 of them discovered the CharOp boards and started adding Lasting Frost to all their combos.

 

[keterys]

And a more vanilla warlock would be 5 less to hit and 24 less to damage, easily.

I mean, I'm not sure a build that uses dual subtles, stacking their damage, is going to fly in a lot of games

Edit: Looks like I got beat to the punch - pretty much same opinion though, so I'll just leave what I said