Atoning a Vampire?

[smetzger]

Assuming the Vampire in question is willing. How would one go about atoning a Vampire?

 

[jarlaxlecq]

Assuming the Vampire in question is willing. How would one go about atoning a Vampire?

hmm, how would someone attone a undead, they are full of negative energy to start with. Wouldn't attoning them "kill" them

 

[der_kluge]

The only way to atone a vampire is to cut off his head, drive a stake through his heart, and stuff his mouth with holy wafers. Submerging the corpse in a box of holy water underneath a stream of running water ain't too shabby, either.

Seriously, sounds like the makings of a campaign to me. There is no way to do this via the rules that I've seen. Baldur's Gate II had something where you could revive one of your party members if they got turned into a vampire. Involved some ritual with some blood, and an ancient tome. I didn't ever have to do it in the game, since none of my party got turned into vampires, so I'm sketchy on the details.

 

[smetzger]

By the rules te only ways I can think of are:

1) Kill him
2) True Rez or Wish
3) Cast Atonement

Anyone think of any shotcuts?

 

[Artoomis]

Atonement:

...Redemption or Temptation: You may cast this spell upon a creature of an opposing alignment in order to offer it a chance to change its alignment to match yours. The prospective subject must be present for the entire casting process. Upon completion of the spell, the subject freely chooses whether it retains its original alignment or acquiesces to your offer and changes to your alignment. No duress, compulsion, or magical influence can force the subject to take advantage of the opportunity offered if it is unwilling to abandon its old alignment. This use of the spell does not work on outsiders or any creature incapable of changing its alignment naturally....
Note: Normally, changing alignment is up to the player. This use of atonement simply offers a believable way for a character to change his or her alignment drastically, suddenly, and definitively.

 

[Jeff Wilder]

hmm, how would someone attone a undead, they are full of negative energy to start with. Wouldn't attoning them "kill" them

Atonement says nothing about using positive energy. In fact, the spell is just as effective turning someone to evil as it is turning someone to good (or lawful, or chaotic).

According to the spell, once you get past the "living creature touched" target, the only real impediment standing between a vampire and atonement is it's "always evil" alignment. The "Redemption" use of atonement says it's incapable of changing the alignment of outsiders or of creatures incapable of changing alignment naturally.

Four ways around this:

(1) Note that the Monster Manual allows for different alignments even in the case of "always;" they should just be extremely rare. Strictly speaking, this makes a vampire not incapable of changing alignment.

(2) Be a rules weenie and note that there's nothing stopping a vampire from changing alignment to, say, LE from CE. Since they can naturally change alignment, albeit within that narrow range, atonement will, by a strict reading, work even outside that range. (Obviously I don't believe this is the intent of the rules, although I do believe that a vampire could, by the intent of the rules, atone to LE from CE.)

(3) Assume that the "always evil" descriptor is just there for the purpose of pinging with detect evil; even a good vampire will still give a paladin headaches. This is the one I'd go with ... IMO free-willed undead that can't change alignment aren't free-willed. And I find the possibility of good undead to be interesting. (See the LG lich in the Scarred Lands' Hallowfaust for a great example.)

(4) Say "screw it, it's my game," and do whatever you like.

 

[Hypersmurf]

(3) Assume that the "always evil" descriptor is just there for the purpose of pinging with detect evil; even a good vampire will still give a paladin headaches.

That's not quite how it works.

It's the [Evil] descriptor that shows up as evil despite alignment. For example, a Red Dragon is "Always Chaotic Evil", but if there's an incredibly rare CN Red Dragon, it won't show up on a Detect Evil.

However, a CN Succubus will still show up, since even though she's not evil-aligned, she still has the [Evil] descriptor.

A Vampire is a special case - even though they don't have the [Evil] descriptor, they're undead... and Detect Evil detects Evil creatures; Evil outsiders; Evil items; Evil spells; and undead.

Note - not "Evil undead", but "undead".

So a CG Vampire shows up not because the template is "always evil" (since the specific alignment overrides the general alignment), and not because he has the [Evil] descriptor (because he doesn't), but because he's undead, and Detect Evil detects undead.

-Hyp.

 

[Jeff Wilder]

So a CG Vampire shows up not because the template is "always evil" (since the specific alignment overrides the general alignment), and not because he has the [Evil] descriptor (because he doesn't), but because he's undead, and Detect Evil detects undead.

Which is exactly what I meant.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Which is exactly what I meant.

Then why mention "always evil" in the first place?

-Hyp.

 

[Artoomis]

... undead.

Note - not "Evil undead", but "undead"...

-Hyp.

That's a misreading of "Detect Evil."

You can sense the presence of evil....Aura Power: An evil aura’s power depends on the type of evil creature or object that you’re detecting and its HD...

On the chart it shows "Undead," not "Evil Undead," that's true, but Undead do not, in general, have "Evil Auras," only Evil Undead do. I'd agree with you only if the spell made it very clear you detected undead in general, but it does not - you detect "Evil Auras."

Undead Type: Undead are once-living creatures animated by spiritual or supernatural forces.
Features: An undead creature has the following features.
—12-sided Hit Dice.
—Base attack bonus equal to 1/2 total Hit Dice (as wizard).
—Good Will saves.
—Skill points equal to (4 + Int modifier, minimum 1) per Hit Die, with quadruple skill points for the first Hit Die, if the undead creature has an Intelligence score. However, many undead are mindless and gain no skill points or feats.
Traits: An undead creature possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry).
—No Constitution score.
—Darkvision out to 60 feet.
—Immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects).
—Immunity to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, stunning, disease, and death effects.
—Not subject to critical hits, nonlethal damage, ability drain, or energy drain. Immune to damage to its physical ability scores (Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution), as well as to fatigue and exhaustion effects.
—Cannot heal damage on its own if it has no Intelligence score, although it can be healed. Negative energy (such as an inflict spell) can heal undead creatures. The fast healing special quality works regardless of the creature’s Intelligence score.
—Immunity to any effect that requires a Fortitude save (unless the effect also works on objects or is harmless).
—Uses its Charisma modifier for Concentration checks.
—Not at risk of death from massive damage, but when reduced to 0 hit points or less, it is immediately destroyed.
—Not affected by raise dead and reincarnate spells or abilities. Resurrection and true resurrection can affect undead creatures. These spells turn undead creatures back into the living creatures they were before becoming undead.
—Proficient with its natural weapons, all simple weapons, and any weapons mentioned in its entry.
—Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) it is described as wearing, as well as all lighter types. Undead not indicated as wearing armor are not proficient with armor. Undead are proficient with shields if they are proficient with any form of armor.
—Undead do not breathe, eat, or sleep.

Noe. No evil aura. Not in general, anyway.