Attack a Held person after just one save?

[moritheil]

For those interested, here's the quote:

You can ready a standard action, a move action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it.

 

[Starglim]

Reading an action in case the orc attacks, or in case the orc moves, is legal (note: or, not both.) Your DM may object to "do anything" as being far too vague.

In any case, the benefit of hold person is not that you get to melee the orc on your next turn, but that your mercurial greatsword-wielding buddy gets to chop its head off in between your turn and the orc's next turn.

I don't see why the DM should object to the condition "if the orc takes any action", or even "if any of orcs A, B and C take an action".

I agree that hold person is intended to support teamwork, not individual kills. However, this situation should be a rare occurrence. It could only arise if the caster started within 10 feet of the orc or had certain feats or class abilities, since the caster would have to move up and coup de grace on his new initiative before the orc's turn, and coup de grace is a full-round action.

 

[pawsplay]

It does not say WHEN the orc may make his save on his turn. Since it is his turn, he may make the save. Your interruption does not deprive him of that in any way I can discern.

 

[Starglim]

You could ready an action to ready an action when anything out of {list of conditions} happens (and then just ready whatever action you want to take with the same trigger).

But maybe you need to specify what action you want to ready with the ready action you are readying at the time you ready the action...

Bye
Thanee

Heh. I don't think this will work, since on your readied action, you move to an initiative just before the opponent takes the action that triggers your readied action, and therefore for the readied action that you readied, the condition has not yet been fulfilled.

 

[Starglim]

It does not say WHEN the orc may make his save on his turn. Since it is his turn, he may make the save. Your interruption does not deprive him of that in any way I can discern.

The orc chose to take the attack action. Since he has begun and lost that action, he does not have a full round action available to make a save.

 

[Thanee]

Heh. I don't think this will work, since on your readied action, you move to an initiative just before the opponent takes the action that triggers your readied action, and therefore for the readied action that you readied, the condition has not yet been fulfilled.

Err... huh?

The initiative change is only relevant for the next round.

And of course the condition has not yet been fulfilled, but it is fulfilled right after readying, since the trigger condition is currently valid, because it triggered the first ready action, and the action was interrupted at that point, so it still is at the same point when you go back.

For example, if you use the trigger "if an enemy is attacking me" once an attack starts, your ready action triggers. When your ready action is completed, the enemy is still attacking you, so if you readied an action to trigger "if an enemy is attacking me" then this will immediately trigger.

But even if the same trigger would not work again, you could surely find a trigger that will trigger immediately (i.e. if the sun is shining, or if it is the seventh of the third month, or if I am alive, or ... ok, I guess it's clear already). That's really the smallest problem there.



Bye
Thanee

 

[Starglim]

Err... huh?

The initiative change is only relevant for the next round.

And of course the condition has not yet been fulfilled, but it is fulfilled right after readying, since the trigger condition is currently valid, because it triggered the first ready action, and the action was interrupted at that point, so it still is at the same point when you go back.

For example, if you use the trigger "if an enemy is attacking me" once an attack starts, your ready action triggers. When your ready action is completed, the enemy is still attacking you, so if you readied an action to trigger "if an enemy is attacking me" then this will immediately trigger.

But even if the same trigger would not work again, you could surely find a trigger that will trigger immediately (i.e. if the sun is shining, or if it is the seventh of the third month, or if I am alive, or ... ok, I guess it's clear already). That's really the smallest problem there.



Bye
Thanee

Hmm. I suppose (given my next post after that) I can't have it both ways.

 

[0-hr]

Ok, that is all very interesting, but it seems that in the end the tactic is valid rules-wise).

So if a cleric starts out adjacent to an angry orc, he can step back and ready to Hold the orc as soon as the guy starts to do anything (assuming the DM is ok with that condition).

If the orc fails the save as the spell is cast, then on the cleric's next turn he can step back in a Coup de gras.

I'll have to run that by my DM's cheese meter.

 

[Lopke_Quasath]

Just remember what is good for the goose is good for the gander.

If your DM agrees to this tactic, expect to see the tank fall prey to that frail wizard or cleric when they charge (coup de graced by a wizard's dagger, nice)!

Not that that will stop me from trying it, lol!

Cheers

 

[pawsplay]

Ok, that is all very interesting, but it seems that in the end the tactic is valid rules-wise).

So if a cleric starts out adjacent to an angry orc, he can step back and ready to Hold the orc as soon as the guy starts to do anything (assuming the DM is ok with that condition).

If the orc fails the save as the spell is cast, then on the cleric's next turn he can step back in a Coup de gras.

I'll have to run that by my DM's cheese meter.

What are your talking about? He fails the save. Now, it's his turn, as you just interrupted him. He still gets his save. The fact that you are inserting yourself into the initiative order does not mean he doesn't get his turn, and on his turn, he gets a save.