Attacking a low-level party

[Painfully]

***Spoilers for my players***









***Spoilers for my players***

Situation:

My group's PCs have successfully pursued and recovered a meteorite from a group of duergar (evil dwarves) and are on their way to return to the clan home of the dwarven cleric three months away.

The meteorite material can be made into an intelligent weapon, and takes on the personality (i.e., alignment) of the first person to touch it. The rock was only able to be found through divination by powerful individuals (and the group's 5th-level dwarven cleric).

I have a pair of other high-level villains that would be able to scry or divine the location of the meteorite, and who would very much like to possess the rock. So my question is this:

Would you face a party of 5th-level PCs against a powerful foe (level 12+ enemy plus a handful of minions) knowing that the chances for the party are slim to none?

One of the villains could be played as being busy elsewhere, but for the other one, it would be foolish to ignore the PCs and the potential of the rock they possess.

My concern is that the players might resent being put into a fight they have almost no chance of winning.

As a player, and a DM, I've always been concerned about letting the PCs win every fight, or eventually win every fight. I don't intend to kill them, only to take the meteorite and "get away with it." Nevertheless, I think the encounter will leave a bad taste in their mouth.

Opinions? And have you done anything similar, or had it done to you, and how did you take it?

 

[Valmur_Dwur]

Ok not real clear on the alignment of the weapon thing. I assume you mean after the weapon has been forged not the metorite itself is to be touched. Try this, have both villians try and take the stone away in one big fracas. Have the party slowly get whittled down along with both evil groups taking potshots at one another. Just when it looks right have one of the evil parties side with the pcs and do away with 1 bad guy. Now, after the fight the remaining bad guy will demand the rock as payment for sparing the lives of the party. As a player I wouldn't like it but it makes sense. Plus I know who has the stone rather than some minions came and took it somewhere. Just a thought

 

[Nifft]

Make the encounter such that running away is an option. A 3-month long trek with the wolves of darkness howling at your back and nipping at your heels would be harrowing, exciting, and (hopefully) survivable.

It will be a new kind of adventure for your we-kill-everything style of players, too -- and when they meet someone (or something) that can guarentee them a safe night's sleep, they'll be as happy as if they'd found a +12 Hackmaster. Of course, trusting strangers isn't going to be easy, since the evil force seeking them will (sooner or later) resort to putting a price on their heads. The bounty angle will also give you the chance to throw lower-level opportunistic opponents at the party, for some occasional (and deserved) moments of victory, to break up the monotony of fleeing for their lives.

-- Nifft

 

[CCamfield]

I like the idea of both villains showing up, but if they actually hate each other it would be "classic" to give the players a chance of sneaking away while the two are pounding the snot out of each other.

Perhaps afterwards, both needing time to recuperate, they can still be in the game by sending minions after the PCs. Or they could just do that in the first place.

Are they both really so likely to be scrying all over the place or where the players are? Do they already know about the meteorite?

Just siccing an overwhelmingly powerful evil villain on the players who takes their hard-earned treasure away from them could seem like "DM intervention to prevent the players from getting something too powerful", which I presume would be viewed negatively!

 

[Capellan]

Would you face a party of 5th-level PCs against a powerful foe (level 12+ enemy plus a handful of minions) knowing that the chances for the party are slim to none?

...

As a player, and a DM, I've always been concerned about letting the PCs win every fight, or eventually win every fight. I don't intend to kill them, only to take the meteorite and "get away with it." Nevertheless, I think the encounter will leave a bad taste in their mouth.

Having let your PCs get a potent item like this, you're now faced with the problem of how to take it off them without it seeming like "the DM shafting the players".

So my first question would be: Why would the villain need to fight?

A high level opponent could steal the item without ever coming under threat from the PCs (either by distracting them with lower-level opponents, or by judicious use of magic items or spells).

If you attack your PCs with overwhelming force and bludgeon them into submission, they are likely to resent you. If they smack around a bunch of minions only to turn around and find the item snaffled while they were distracted, they are much mroe likely to resent the NPC ... which is who you want them to dislike, after all

Just make sure they have an easy way to find out who stole from them, so they have an in-game target for their anger.

 

[Painfully]

What I have already done, is to break the meteorite and have one large piece, and a smaller piece. The small piece was "touched" by its evil possessor (though the PCs dont know that yet) while the large piece remained untouched (although I could change this if needed).

My plan, before submitting for further suggestions here on the boards, was to let the party reach the dwarven stronghold, and while the PCs are celebrating on a level above the forges have some drow raid the forges area while the smiths were actually working on crafting the meteorite into some item.

The drow would scry the forges--and I've considered either using teleport to get them in and out, or actually having a tunnel "break-in" somewhere near the forges area. Several turns might pass while somebody from the forges escapes to warn those celebrating that there has been a raid, and several more turns might pass as they try to reach back to the forges.

I will of course give them a parting sight of the drow escaping, but no doubt the wounded might be enough to make the party stay put.

Now all the while, the party might be awarded the smaller piece of the meteorite for themselves, and have the dwarves try to forge something from it before they go off in pursuit. If this happens, I will probably not make the smaller piece "touched" by the evil ones mentioned earlier.

If any of this is confusing, just freely ignore it all. But suffice to say that there will be some clues, whether left over from the battle, or from the local dwarves having encountered this enemy before.

*edit* Oh, and depending on this thread reaction, I was going to actually give the party a chance to fight it out, or just let the bad guys leave a trail of broken forge workers behind.
*end edit*
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I know this sort of "taking away" from the party can seem rather heavy handed from a fair DM standpoint, and I just wanted to know if others felt the same way, but have allowed it from time to time in their own games.

I think it still makes for a good story in the end, so I personally don't think it's too strong a tactic. But Im looking for others opinions as players and DMs to see if I'm on par or not.

 

[incognito]

The evil guys want the rock, right?

Who cares abotu an insignificant 5th level party - jusck knowck them AWAY from the meteor, and grab it, and go.

Becasue, the party is not Thee ONLY force of good in existance.

Ask your party this. Would they waste thier one firsball for the day, on dire rats, when they know wthey are facing Trolls later on in the dy?


Well - the evil party has the same concerns. They should nto waste too many valuable recourses on the party, becasue they will be left "relatively" undefended when the more advanced good guys come for the rock.

Have the bads guys cast dome debilitating and damaging spells, indicating thier level, and incapacitating the party (shout, unholy blight, etc) then have them take the rock and "port out.
Maybe leaving some minions behind to ofset the weight of the rock.

How's that?

 

[Painfully]

incognito, that sounds about right. I didn't feel right not letting the party have a chance to fight a little. The drow are after all breaking into a dwarven clan home.

The celebration happening one floor above the forges will be key in reducing the traffic in all the other parts of the stronghold. Dwarves having short legs, I keep thinking a fireman's pole would be most effecient, but I'll probably avoid that idea and just go for stone steps.

I will probably close off the entry to the forge room with web spells, symbols, and such to slow down the party and perhaps damage them enough to make them think twice before pursuing. A few choice guard animals and the main force will be able to get away.

Perhaps later the enemy animal trainer will get his chance to repay the party for any pets he had lost in this fight.

 

[Mythmere]

Once they're all paralyzed by the horde of ghouls or whatever, the NPC you want them to hate steps up and delivers his Dr. Evil speech about how he deserves it much more than them, how they can't defeat him, not ever, and how he's going to enjoy ruling the world. Then he calls off the ghouls (or whatever) and leaves. Maybe he straps some lethal puzzle onto them that they have to solve once they're unparalyzed or die. Or he leaves something that is supposed to kill them, but if they're good they can foil it (this is the mutant sea bass scenario, again from Austin Powers). If they live through the "How many times do I have to kill you, Boy?" (that's from the Three Musketeers) challenge, they'll consider themselves victorious, and be raring and ready to go against the NPC. They'll forget the meteor. Honestly. Other DMs can probably back me up on this.

 

[forbeez]

know this sort of "taking away" from the party can seem rather heavy handed from a fair DM standpoint, and I just wanted to know if others felt the same way, but have allowed it from time to time in their own games.

I have done this sort of thing to my players before and had it done to me also - how you portray the events and react to the players is the key.

I remember this being done to a party I was in several years ago by a DM who ambushed us, took all our hard earned items and threw them away in front of us, smiled evilly and just shrugged when we complained - I stoppped playing that campaign 3 weeks later.

This sort of tactic CAN work well depending on your relationship with the players and their expectation of the campaign. I have used this sort of thing on occasion but to work best your players must trust you and realise that what you are doing is furthering a plot not just being petty. I think many of the ideas mentioned in this thread will demonstrate that there is a plot at work and that the PCs will get a chance for payback (even if they have to gain a level or 5) so go for it!!!

If the players dont like this then explain out of game that "you have a plan" and ask them to go with it.