Authenticity in RPGing

[Imaro]

I find it telling that the response to "people seem determined to ignore the differences between these types of games" is exactly to once again assert that these differences don't exist. Its like a perfect little capsule of the whole thing. Are you REALLY asserting that system doesn't matter? I mean, I'm sure you've been around this community a long time. You must have some sense of the long history and salient factors in that 'debate'. I personally don't find that kind of position really tenable.

Where in the entire section that you quoted am I asserting that system doesn't matter? Where? If anything... what I asserted was that just declaring a game's major playstyle A doesn't make it so. Even the example you provided seemed to indicate that actual AP/pure railroad style play was in the minority for you. So I'm not sure where you're getting system doesn't matter from. How about this... point me to the system parts of 5e that directly push one to adventure path play or even adventure of the week type of play. That's what I'm asking for. something besides a blanket assertion with nothing to back it up.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Where in the entire section that you quoted am I asserting that system doesn't matter? Where? If anything... what I asserted was that just declaring a game's major playstyle A doesn't make it so. Even the example you provided seemed to indicate that actual AP/pure railroad style play was in the minority for you. So I'm not sure where you're getting system doesn't matter from. How about this... point me to the system parts of 5e that directly push one to adventure path play or even adventure of the week type of play. That's what I'm asking for. something besides a blanket assertion with nothing to back it up.

Well, OK. I mean, isn't this stuff pretty well known? Without any shadow of a doubt 5e specifically states the roles of DM and players. DM presents all fiction without exception. This fiction is made up of some kind of 'notes' or 'map and key' type information, granting that nothing forbids making something up on the spot if necessary. I don't think any of this is controversial. Now, given that, what kind of play is possible? It doesn't have to be strictly linear, but it is going to be primarily brought to the table, not constructed there. If the DM is responding specifically to the players, in a 'play to find out what happens' kind of paradigm that would involve dynamically framing scenes (maybe not purely, but in a substantive way this kind of handling of fiction will need to be present). But 5e doesn't have any provision for that. So, yes, the core premise and play loop of 5e and how it divides up authority at the table does push towards a game where players navigate fiction produced by, or curated by a GM.

When I say people seem to be saying system doesn't matter, what I'm pointing out is, you really don't use, and would not most effectively use, 5e to play a game in the style of Dungeon World. 5e's style of resource management will get in the way too. While DW does deal with resources, the principles of play fundamentally allocate it to a different purpose than in 5e, and one that is more narratively flexible. There are other issues but I keep hearing people talking in these threads like its just as easy to go do a game in the style that DW will best support using 5e. It just isn't, they are VERY different games.

 

[Maxperson]

Well, the two games cited in the OP aren't even games that @pemerton plays regularly, if at all, from what I know. And it was more about some of the GMing and playing techniques used in those games.

Nor does he actually mention any games as squelching authenticity. He mentions railroading and its variations.

"For me, what those RPGs - with all their variations in details of technique, principles, etc - is authenticity. That players and GMs make genuine choices, in play, that say something - individually and, if it's working properly, together.

The flipside of this is that the effect of railroading and all its variations (the "three clue rule", GM-enforced alignment, adventures that work by the players figuring out what the GM has in mind as the solution, etc) is to squelch authenticity. The parameters of play have already been set."

He explicitly calls out non-GM driven RPGs as having authenticity that allows players and GMs to make genuine choices that mean something. Then he speaks about the flipside and the flipside of non-GM driven RPGs are GM driven RPGs, which he says railroad and squelch authenticity.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Mod Note:

22 pages in, and certain points are being rehashed over and over again. Nobody is being persuaded, several people are becoming more agitated…or strident.

I don’t see a point in this particular thread staying open. HOWEVER, I do see enough merit in the heart of the discussion that icontinued discussion of it would be just fine, assuming the relaunch doesn’t include the loaded terminology that derailed this one from the start.

On BOTH sides of the discussion. If a relaunched thread goes downhill the same way, moderator action will escalate likewise.