"Authenticity" of double weapons

[Sniktch]

Sniktch likes the look of the gyrspike - slash! smash! Looks cool. But when Sniktch tried to use one on his last job, he lose control of spikey ball swinging sword all around. Now Sniktch has headache and doesn't like double weapons anymore. Give Sniktch two kukri and a tailspike anyday, much better, yesss.

 

[takyris]

Kenjib, I was all prepared to disagree with you, but then something struck me. With two weapons, I often feel as though one is the set-up move and one is the strike -- with two sticks, I'll get into a technique that goes check-STRIKE-check-STRIKE, where the check is still gonna hurt, but mainly it's there to keep the guy's arm down while I whack him in the head. With the double spear, what I really benefit from is not having to reset my weapon as much. Instead of stabbing, pulling back, and stabbing again, I can stab (a glancing strike across the side of the throat) and then immediately move into a side-swing, without having to reset the weapon. The end result is a shorter time period between attacks -- which in D&D, translates to an extra attack.

So I think it's 50/50. 50% set-up, checking, or defense bonus from the other weapon, and 50% additional attack potential.

Potential house rule which would definitely overpower two-weapon style:

Each round you use two weapons, choose what to do with your off-hand weapon:

1) Gain an AC bonus from parrying -- +1 for Tiny, +2 for Small, +3 for Medium. Take off-hand fighting penalties with your attacks.

2) Set up an attack -- you gain a +2 bonus to one attack that round (your first melee attack), although you can do nothing else with the off-hand weapon. Off-hand weapon-use penalties do not apply.

3) Two-weapon as normal.

4) Do nothing.

In order to not totally overpower two-weapon fighting that way, I'd allow all of that with a shield as well.

Probably too much. But that's how I use double weapons or paired weapons in real life...

-Tacky

 

[Kal Torak]

I have never encounterd a double weapon (exept the quaterstaff, that is used as a double weapon when used well) in my readings, and as far as I can tell none of them are if even possible to use (can you imagine trying to use the sword-flail contraption in S&F??) let alone be more effective than there single counterparts, shorter swings, risk of gutting youself and also much slower time between blows (I think the double spear is different, closer to a spiked quaterstaff) as you have to carefully (in fear of hurting you self) reposition your weapon, same said for parrying.

 

[Sniktch]

Sword-flail thingy from S&F is gyrspike I spoke of. Looks real keen, causes big headaches in user.

 

[Plane Sailing]

The end result is a shorter time period between attacks -- which in D&D, translates to an extra attack.

...

Potential house rule which would definitely overpower two-weapon style:

Another potential house rule:

Reduce the iterative attack penalty, using the same level as the monk (although you still only get your normal *number* of iterative attacks).

e.g. double sword user, instead of attacking at +11/+6/+1 attacks at +11/+8/+5

This would seem to reflect your description of it "setting up subsequent attacks".

Cheers

 

[Tarek]

Double-weapons in general

The Latajang is an RL martial arts weapon.

The inspiration for the "double-sword" is obviously the dual-bladed lightsaber used by Darth Maul. However, the inspiration for the dual-bladed lightsaber (and the associated fight sequence) comes from various "staff vs. two swordsmen" katas/forms. A staff wielded by a skilled individual is a scary thing...

The dire flail, orcish double-axe, and gyrspike are all garbage weapons. They look cool but are less effective IRL than the single-weapon versions of the same. All weapons rely on leverage or momentum, and these weapons have the problem that part of that energy is "stolen" by the other half of the weapon.

There are a number of "chain-and-*" weapons, but the weapons attached to the chain are all Small weapons in D&D terms; the kama and the dagger being the two most common examples.

The two most ridiculous weapons, however, aren't double-weapons. They are the spiked chain and the tumbling bolt. Knowing how chain weapons are used in RL martial arts, (it frequently involves wrapping sections of the chain around your own body in order to change the direction of attack) I wouldn't want to be the cleric in any party where one member uses this weapon.
And the tumbling bolt shows a complete and utter ignorance of physics. "I know, let's take a fin-stabilized crossbow bolt and make it unstable! That'll make it hurt a lot when it hits, and it'll still have the same range as a regular bolt! No, really! Why are you laughing at me?"

A hint for the designer of that particular piece of crap: a spin-stabilized .223 rifle round moving at super-sonic speeds is quite different from a fin-stabilized crossbow bolt moving at far sub-sonic speeds. Making a crossbow bolt tumble means that the bolt is no longer presenting its smallest cross-section to the direction of travel, which increases drag, which reduces range (drastically), accuracy, and steals energy from the missile (meaning it does less damage if it hits). A .223 bullet only becomes unstable when it hits something.

Tarek

 

[argo]

SWORD-CHUCKS !!!!

 

[Kesh]

SWORD-CHUCKS !!!!

Argh! You beat me to it!

 

[NoOneofConsequence]

I have never encounterd a double weapon (exept the quaterstaff, that is used as a double weapon when used well) in my readings, and as far as I can tell none of them are if even possible to use (can you imagine trying to use the sword-flail contraption in S&F??) let alone be more effective than there single counterparts, shorter swings, risk of gutting youself and also much slower time between blows (I think the double spear is different, closer to a spiked quaterstaff) as you have to carefully (in fear of hurting you self) reposition your weapon, same said for parrying.

The gyrspike has an historical counterpart. In medieval Japan exponents of the manriki-gusari (chain) often attached a chain to other weapons - hence the kusari gama (chain and sickle). THere is evidence of a chain and sword combo. Basically, it winds up being a one handed sword in one hand and a chain whip in the other, they just happen to be connected. Of course the gyrspike has a ridiculously thick and short piece of chain attached to it and its blade looks pretty heavy, too much for one handed wielding.

 

[NoOneofConsequence]

Re: Double-weapons in general

There are a number of "chain-and-*" weapons, but the weapons attached to the chain are all Small weapons in D&D terms; the kama and the dagger being the two most common examples.

The two most ridiculous weapons, however, aren't double-weapons. They are the spiked chain and the tumbling bolt. Knowing how chain weapons are used in RL martial arts, (it frequently involves wrapping sections of the chain around your own body in order to change the direction of attack) I wouldn't want to be the cleric in any party where one member uses this weapon.

Tarek

I find I can cope with a spiked chain mentally if I imagine that it's only got a spike (or mace head or similar) at each end and in between it's just a length of straight chain. There's a pair of sketches in an issue of Dragon for a minature called a "snakestrike duellist" which uses this configuration of spiked chain. Looks rather cool actually.