Avalanche Press stops using d20 license

[jmucchiello]

Um, it's a popular perception that people down at the local FLGS are all as enlightened as people on the boards. That is often not the case. My players almost NEVER visit the boards, and probably don't know this is even going on if I didn't tell them.

Personally, I don't even assume that all ENWorlders really understand the d20/ogl issues. Some are savvy, some are mostly clued, and many more are only vaguely aware. Go through the firestorm threads and observe the number of folk who ask things like "who owns the OGL?" or assert things like "wizards doesn't put the logo on their own books." Thus, I expect little to no FLGS regulars to even know the logo exists.

The only purpose of the logo is clue in retailers that if they don't know where to put a book, books with this logo are grouped together, preferrably not too far from the D&D books which also sport the logo.

By now, most large d20 publishers don't need the logo any more since most retailers should know by now to put new Avalanche Press books next to the old Avalanche Press books, near the D&D books as usual.

That's the theory anyway. We'll see if it affects AP adversely in the coming months.

"May you live in interesting times." -- Supposed Chinese curse.

 

[jmucchiello]

I agree with you that going OGL over D20 isn't a death sentence; ways exist to make compatibility clear. At the same time, don't kid yourself into thinking the D20 logo has no relevance anymore. The fact is, the vast majority of the market doesn't understand, or isn't aware of, the various levels of the OGL/D20L arena. For a large number of D&D/D20 gamers, if the D20 logo isn't on it, they're not likely to look at it, unless the company's done an exceptional job of indicating what they are in some other fashion.

(Before someone jumps in to correct me, I know that this isn't as much the case as it used to be. But I still believe it's the case more often than not; I know that it's so in my own experience.)

Do you really think that people would stop buying Mongoose products if Mongoose removed all of the d20 logos from their back stock (somehow)? FLGSs would still put their books next to other d20 books (that's where we've always put Mongoose books) and people would still look out for the next Quint book. I think individual branding is far more important than the d20 logo these day. Only brands that are not established (say, my own stuff if I were to go to print on my own) would require the logo just to get their books onto the FLGSs order sheets, let alone onto the right shelves. But once those books were near the other d20 books, all bets would be off. Consumers do not train themselves to look for little 1/2 inch square logos. They look at the "what's new" section of the FLGS and they look at the D&D section (and whatever other game system sections they like). If your title involves D&D game terms, people will pick it up. If your title has an evocative cover, people will pick it up. If, once they get it into their hands, it seems to read like any other d20 book, (they'll put it down and mutter "useless third-party crap" ) they'll consider buying it based on what they see.

 

[Henry]

Consumers do not train themselves to look for little 1/2 inch square logos. They look at the "what's new" section of the FLGS and they look at the D&D section (and whatever other game system sections they like). If your title involves D&D game terms, people will pick it up. If your title has an evocative cover, people will pick it up. If, once they get it into their hands...

My problem is this: In order to get it into their hands, they have to know it exists.

My biggest concern, as d20 publishers start going OGL-only, is that the young d20 license is gonna be strangled in its "crib" by losing the support of bigger name publishers. If companies like Green Ronin and Malhavoc stay d20, it has a chance; otherwise, d20 licensed products will never grow beyond its current state - and it needs to grow A LOT to get to be a serious force in RPG's.

 

[jmucchiello]

My problem is this: In order to get it into their hands, they have to know it exists.

My biggest concern, as d20 publishers start going OGL-only, is that the young d20 license is gonna be strangled in its "crib" by losing the support of bigger name publishers. If companies like Green Ronin and Malhavoc stay d20, it has a chance; otherwise, d20 licensed products will never grow beyond its current state - and it needs to grow A LOT to get to be a serious force in RPG's.

And thus the concerted effort to create an alternative compatiblity logo. The FGA (once know as the free20 group) is in the process of releasing a logo licenesd like d20 that indicates "compatibility with SRD-based Fantasy". We are hoping it gets adopted along side the d20 logo. That will allow the community of publishers to grow beyond the current size should the d20 logo be abandoned en masse.

Some would say that because AP has abandoned d20, that strangling has alrady begun. I don't think I'm quite ready to agree with that statement. Yet.

 

[Brown Jenkin]

Fat chance that AEG will abandon the d20 logo, although I would be surprised. Andy mentioned that they have major publishers that have stayed within the boundaries of QS prior to this clause being added to the new version of the trademark. Although I hate to assume, AEG is a major publisher of d20, courtesy of their Rokugan (with a one-time help from Wizards), Spycraft (who got special permission to used the not-yet-OGC Vitality/Wound points health system, and soon-to-be popular Stargate RPG (based on the TV show; rules engine follow Spycraft closely).

I don't know about Spycraft or Stargate, but AEG's Rokugan stuff is more than just d20STL logoed. They have a seperate licence deal that allows them to place the Oriental Adventures logo on the Rokugan stuff. I would assume that they were already meeting higher standards in order to use that logo and that the d20STL changes would not effect this. This is like worrying if KenzerCo is worried about the d20STL when they have the actual Dungeons and Dragons Logo on thier Kalamar books.

 

[Psion]

I don't know about Spycraft or Stargate, but AEG's Rokugan stuff is more than just d20STL logoed. They have a seperate licence deal that allows them to place the Oriental Adventures logo on the Rokugan stuff. I would assume that they were already meeting higher standards in order to use that logo and that the d20STL changes would not effect this. This is like worrying if KenzerCo is worried about the d20STL when they have the actual Dungeons and Dragons Logo on thier Kalamar books.

That may be the case with Rokugan (but somehow I doubt it... the deal was struck before this ever came down the pipe.) Kenzer's condition seems more like you describe, since they have wailed mightily about the changes being forced upon them for books like the orc book for things like explicit descriptions of torture.

But this is almost certainly not the case for Spycraft and Stargate. The deal there is almost identical in scope to the deal struck letting some publishers using creatures that didn't make it to the final SRD... a simple pushbutton permission.

 

[Arnwyn]

...otherwise, d20 licensed products will never grow beyond its current state - and it needs to grow A LOT to get to be a serious force in RPG's.

Wha...? You totally lost me here.

 

[kingpaul]

Wha...? You totally lost me here.

I have to agree. It was my understanding that d20 was already a force to be reckoned with...why else the numerous conversions out there to jump on the bandwagon?

 

[Umbran]

I have to agree. It was my understanding that d20 was already a force to be reckoned with...

If it were not a force to be reckoned with now, there wouldn't be such a furor over the change, now would there?

 

[Wombat]

I won't really miss them.

Not only did I feel embarrassed just looking through their material at a store (I always hated their covers), but once I got inside I found loads of horribly broken mechanics, glaring historical inaccuracies, and generally shoddy material. I know their Celtic supplement won awards, but all I can say is that is because the reviewers also knew little to nothing about Celtic culture.

Nope, don't use 'em and now never will.