Avenger Oath of Enmity... how cool

[wlmartin]

I am still finding more and more things I love with the Avenger but the Oath of Enmity has to the coolest.

After doing so sums I figured that the ability to use 2 die on a roll is extremely powerful

Needing a 1 on a D20, 1d20 = 100%, 2d20 = 100%
Needing a 2 on a D20, 1d20 = 99.75%, 2d20 = 95%
Needing a 3 on a D20, 1d20 = 90%, 2d20 = 99%
Needing a 4 on a D20, 1d20 = 85%, 2d20 = 97.75%
Needing a 5 on a D20, 1d20 = 80%, 2d20 = 96%
Needing a 6 on a D20, 1d20 = 75%, 2d20 = 93.75%
Needing a 7 on a D20, 1d20 = 70%, 2d20 = 91%
Needing a 8 on a D20, 1d20 = 65%, 2d20 = 87.75%
Needing a 9 on a D20, 1d20 = 60%, 2d20 = 84%
Needing a 10 on a D20, 1d20 = 55%, 2d20 = 79.75%
Needing a 11 on a D20, 1d20 = 50%, 2d20 = 75%
Needing a 12 on a D20, 1d20 = 45%, 2d20 = 69.75%
Needing a 13 on a D20, 1d20 = 40%, 2d20 = 64%
Needing a 14 on a D20, 1d20 = 35%, 2d20 = 57.75%
Needing a 15 on a D20, 1d20 = 30%, 2d20 = 51%
Needing a 16 on a D20, 1d20 = 25%, 2d20 = 43.75%
Needing a 17 on a D20, 1d20 = 20%, 2d20 = 36%
Needing a 18 on a D20, 1d20 = 15%, 2d20 = 27.75%
Needing a 19 on a D20, 1d20 = 10%, 2d20 = 19%
Needing a 20 on a D20, 1d20 = 5%, 2d20 = 9.75%

If you consider the ability to hit is one of the hardest things to do in the game. There are many abilities to aid in beating resistance, doing more damage etc but there are very little to actually help you hit better because I imagine if everyone could hit better the game would be a lot less about luck and we would no longer care about what the D20 rolls come out to since we know that with enough ToHit buffs they dont matter.

Having OoE translates just a tiny (0.25%) poorer than having the 4e equivialnt of a Keen weapon (doing Crit on a 19-20 instead of 20). Add to that there are Higher Level feats that allow you to do a crit on a 19-20 instead of 20 alone, that can translate into a crit on 20% of your attacks!!

When you consider that you are almost twice as likely to roll a crit when using your OoE power, it makes the mouth water. Combine that with a High Crit weapon and the Avenger Feat that gives you Brutal 2 on any attack against your OoE target and you have a winning combo.

My Avenger will be elven, minmaxed (so +5 to his damage modifer), using a +1 weapon and with the Valenar Weaponary Feat he will wield a Falchion which gives a +2 bonus to damage. Add in the feat (i forget its name of the top of my head) that gives you Brutal 2 on any attack vs your OoE target and the Falchion having a High Crit it means the following

On every non crit hit I will do
2d4 + 8 damage
(this translates, with brutal to an average of 15 damage each hit)

On every crit I will do
Max Damage : 16
Extra Crit : 1d6 (avg 3)
1[W] for high crit : 2d4 (avg 7)
Total : 26

... it is unbelievably powerful... at to that as an Elf I can substitute one roll with my elven racial trait once per encounter


IMO, if you want a character that hits a lot more than he misses - The Avenger is the one too have.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

The Oath of Emnity feature is definitely powerful, but remember there are certain limitations where it applies. Sometimes it can be harder to use than Sneak Attack! Combat Advantage has many sources, but getting an enemy to stand free or whatever the exact requirement was is harder.

 

[wlmartin]

The Oath of Emnity feature is definitely powerful, but remember there are certain limitations where it applies. Sometimes it can be harder to use than Sneak Attack! Combat Advantage has many sources, but getting an enemy to stand free or whatever the exact requirement was is harder.

The limitation is that they are the only enemy adjacent to you.
Getting this seems easy enough with the following powers

At Will : Focused Fury : If you are targeting your OoE target with this power, you can push a different enemy 2 squares
At Will : Overwhelming Strike : You shift 1 square and slide the target 1 square into the space you occupied

Encounter : Angelic Alacrity : Before the attack you shift 3 squares
Encounter : Speed of Stillness : Before the attack you shift 2 squares

... 3rd level Encounter : Relentless Stride : Your OoE target ends its turn within 10 squares of you but is not adjacent to you, before you attack teleport to a square adjacent to the target.

So whilst you are going to have occasions where you hit your OoE target and there are other baddies around you - most times you can isolate them quite well. Also since you can use the utility power, refocus enmity - you can switch to an enemy that is more isolated than your current target.

All in all, whilst it isnt a 100% power that can be used no matter the condition, it is a lot easier to achieve than a sneak attack for a rogue.

 

[Neonchameleon]

The good thing about 4e - every class is designed to be the best there is at what it does. (The assassin fails, admittedly). And they are all cool in their ways.

 

[Raunalyn]

Yes, Avengers are indeed a blast to play. Not only are they accurate, but their OoE, if done properly, can add MAJOR damage!

I'm running a Half-Elven Retributive Avenger. My usual tactics involve dropping my oath on an enemy, running through a bunch of its allies and getting OA's (and tripping off my level 2 utility that gives me a DR of 5) and stacking up a ton of damage bonuses (3 additional damage per enemy that hits me). But the time I get to my oath target, I am at a minimum of +9 to damage (usually). Then, with my lovely half-elven dillitante, I can twin strike for +9 damage with each hit. If I have allies nearby, add a furies advance for an additional attack and damage, depending on nearby allies.

At 6th level, I've come close to 100 points of damage in a nova round.

 

[Windjammer]

The Avenger loses in damage output what it makes up in accuracy. Yes, OoE is very helpful to reliably hit foes, but then look at the damage output of Avenger powers with those of the Barbarian, and you can see two different design principles in place.

Not denying that Avengers can't get decent damage, but it's considerably harder to achieve and requires considerable more tactical finesse than other classes. Even that is not necessarily a negative, as some players like the added tactical challenge.

Equally, added accuracy is a mixed blessing for the party. So here's a class which needs less attention from the party leader (to-hit boosts), can hence make the most of its mobility (no need to stay very close to the leader) and take the fight anywhere on the battlefield. But again that's a trade off. If you got a good leader in the party and there's no reason for the PCs to spread out - e.g. in every encounter which takes place on small to medium battlefields - then the avenger's assets are offset easily, and a barbarian would work better. Especially if we're talking about barbarian who optimise (among other things) on temporary hit points, and we got again a character who functions quite independently from leaders.

Ultimately, however, we are certainly talking about a class with one of the best flavours in 4E (as far as I'm concerned). And that's what makes playing one so enjoyable.

 

[mneme]

Yes, Avengers are indeed a blast to play. Not only are they accurate, but their OoE, if done properly, can add MAJOR damage!

It can, but they're very inconsistent on damage (while silmutaneously being very consistent on hitting).

I'm running a Half-Elven Retributive Avenger. My usual tactics involve dropping my oath on an enemy, running through a bunch of its allies and getting OA's (and tripping off my level 2 utility that gives me a DR of 5) and stacking up a ton of damage bonuses (3 additional damage per enemy that hits me).

A few problems with this:

1. While I've found that OAs are a very good source for Retribution (particularly since it sticks with you for next turn), as you go up in level it becomes more and more inconsistent, as the baddies both hit harder and tend to inflict annoying conditions on you during your run.

2. You can't use that utility in the manner you listed; it's an Immediate Interrupt. You cannot use an Interrupt during your own turn. Obviously, you can wait until an enemy targets you and use the resistance that way during your own turn.

FWIW, I enjoyed my Deva Retributive avenger through heroic levels, but retrained (LFR, so I could) to Unity instead in paragon. +2 per ally is a lot easier to set up without unfunny surprises than a big Retribution bonus, and the ability to take a feat and grant +2 to every ally while adjacent is huge.

Also, re @wlmartin "At Will : Focused Fury : If you are targeting your OoE target with this power, you can push a different enemy 2 squares" is a trap. You should pretty much never take this power; it lets you push the different enemy after you've lost your bonus. It does let you use wisdom with a ranged weapon, so there's -some- point to it as a utility choice to give you a ranged option, but it's mostly dire.

Avengers should pretty much always take a ranged power (Int should take Bond of Censure, as it's crazy good between a huge pull and the ability to roll twice; others can take Radiant Vengence, as the temps are always useful, but Avenging Shackles might be good in parties where it being a RBA is important; you can get a double roll out of it with a feat if you want, too). And for your main power, Overwhelming Strike is the clear winner even if you aren't Power of Skill, but there are a -few- other options.

 

[DarkLord Of DForce]

There are ways to do just about anything in 4e - guess its one of the reasons why I like it so much.

Take your Half-Elf Avenger, using Two-Weapon Fighting and Two-Weapon Opening. Ardent Champion for PP, Eternal Seeker for Epic. Equip with a Rending Urgrosh or use Two-Bladed Warrior and use 2 Rending War Axe's.
Take the feat that makes all Axe's high crit. Take Avenging Resolution. Add War or Giants rings, Dev. Critical Feat, etc, etc,... Epic Resurgence and Divine Mastery to recover powers.

Take feats and powers that add to your attack rolls - Take Hurricane of Blades for a nova round after you set everything up.

Even Twin Strike and Quicksilver Blade (stance) will do a lot in one round.

You will crit a lot and you will do major damage.

 

[cignus_pfaccari]

You'd think rolling twice would give you twice the chance to hit, but really it's about 50% more often. And sometimes you roll two misses.

I think WotC initially thought that the extra hitting would increase their damage. And it does improve damage per round, but it's not as noticeable as, say, the extra dice from Sneak Attack or Hunter's Quarry or sorcerers' EXPLODINATION. Also, as means for other strikers to increase their accuracy come into the game, the avenger's advantage in that regard comes down. Hence, the article from Dragon 382 with the feat fixes for extra damage and critting and such.

I suspect the Unity avenger is probably the most reliable overall for damage; both Pursuit and Retribution have their extra-damage conditions at the discretion of the DM ("No, no, I'm not going to move away from you" or "No, no, my friends aren't going to hit you. That'd be silly."), and Retribution's depends on you taking damage, which in this day of much harder-hitting monsters, seems like a bad idea.

Brad

 

[wlmartin]

It can, but they're very inconsistent on damage (while silmutaneously being very consistent on hitting).

Also, re @wlmartin "At Will : Focused Fury : If you are targeting your OoE target with this power, you can push a different enemy 2 squares" is a trap. You should pretty much never take this power; it lets you push the different enemy after you've lost your bonus.

I do understand this however I can either do one of the following
1 : Combine it with an Action Point to get my OoE on the target
2 : Combine it with a shift so that I can move to the other side of my Target.

To those that worry the Avenger is not the best damage output out of the strikers, I know this fullwell currently playing a Barbarian with Executioners Axe, his damage is OFF THE HOOK! however it gets a bit boring to just drop monsters every 5 minutes. I like optimization as much as the next man but I am in the game to have fun not play the "How many monsters can you beat in 5 minutes" game.

One of the most annoying things in the game for me is not hitting. I would come up with a supreme tactical move where I do a double move then use an action point to unleash my 3[W] Encounter Power before "poof" I roll a 3.

I then just shrink back into my chair, line up my power cards (flipping the ones I have just expended) and tell the DM my move is done.

... I would trade all of the damage dice a Barbarian gets to actually hit something.

Against an average foe, one that with modifiers you can defeat say on a roll of 10 + modifiers, an Avenger using OoE over a Barbarian gets to hit on average 25% more often. I have not done the maths on that but I am fairly sure that the extra damage a Barbarian can do is reduced heavily by misses and if compared toe to toe against an Avenger that hits 25% more often, the Avenger may improve against him... and if he doesn't he would definitely hold his own.

The powers I have will be combined with feat, utility and encounter powers that give me either a) Good Movement b) Ability to refocus my enmity.

So in a situation where I have 2 foes in front of me (Points North and North East on my compass) and 1 foe behind me (Point south east on my compass) with my OoE on the guy to the north.

In such an instance I could use Refocus Enmity on the guy to my south and then shift to the space to my south (his west) and hit him free of surrounding mobs

In another there be my OoE surrounding me with 2 other mobs, I refocus my enmity to someone that is further away from the group (perhaps a slinger or ranger on the far outskirts of the room), use Distracting Flare to become invisible and then move my speed and unleash hell on the OoE... one I can continue to beat on since his friends will take some time to move back over to me.


The other option still is to sacrifice damage output and go for a Reach Weapon (where I am sure there are cool feats to do with Reach Weapons I ignore as I don't usually use them) and where all the surrounding mobs are at 1 reach positions, I simply shift back a bit and poke my OoE from a distance... the thought of that seems quite appealing.


There is an interesting tactic with Censure of Retribution that I will take some getting used to. My DM will get used to me using Retribution Powers (specificaly encounter ones) that translate into "If there are enemies around me, they are going to be damaged" and he will choose to either a) Allow me to reap the rewards of these powers or b) Back off me a little

If it is a) The loss in using my OoE so much because I will be surrounded more often is annoying but the extra damage I will do to surrounding foes could make me feel better about that b) Although I get to use my OoE more, I have Encounter Powers which aside from doing the [W] damage they do, are pretty useless since the DM wont put as many mobs near me.

It is an interesting quandry to be sure.


I also like the in game idea that my character will either be feared (the mobs will back away from him) or double teamed but considering this guy is pointing his finger and shouting that his god brings divine vengance to you, and you and you and... you! then it is foreseable that like the Wizard, he will be targeted before others.


I am going to RP this character as much as I can and although Power of Skill sounds handy, Ioun is really the only deity you can use it with and I don't like him for an Avenger... Who is he going to kill? Those that hunt librarians? Book burners?

Instead I chose Ilmater as whilst Ilmater has only one real enemy (Lovitar) his sphere of influence is in aiding and healing the sick, tortured and enslaved... Having an Avenger that brings divine vengance upon those that bring pain and suffering to innocents seems a lot more realistic in an Adventurer.

Other Avengers, if RPed would need to be more like Hunters searching out Orcs, Drow (Corellon), Giants, Trolls (Moradin) etc rather than just joining an Adventure Group in the hopes of perhaps finding some enemies to bring vengance to... Whereas Ilmater fits perfectly because there is suffering in almost every D&D quest / adventure and having the purpose to hunt that down seems a lot more appropriate for an Avenger and I am surprised more have not chosen to play Ilmater Avengers before.

I am still stuck on what Race to choose.
If I minmax I go for Deva but Devas are a bit too delicate for me. Also the idea is that my character grew up in slavery and was free by Ilmater followers, was taught their ways and inducted into the Order of the Pained Hand and trained as an Avenger... since Devas just "poof" into existence as adults, that storyline is screwed up for me.

Githerzai seems like a good option for this build but I am not 100% sure in using them, I will if I have to but am looking for another option.

Shardmind again have the 2 attributes I need (Wis & Int) but they again dont feel right in an Avenger.

Does anyone have a good suggestion for an Avenger Race that isnt 100% minmaxed
(ie has 1 of the 2 attributes I need to save me on point buying)
​

I am not playing this character like he is within the top 5 builds for DPS or accuracy, losing a modifier + in Int / Wis is not the end of the world for me as I will be RPing this character more, however I don't want to hobble him too much as I still need him to be feasible.