Avenger Oath of Enmity... how cool

[Neonchameleon]

Does anyone have a good suggestion for an Avenger Race that isnt 100% minmaxed

Dwarf? Think the trollslayers in WHFRP. Human? Shifter? Half Elf? The latter two being often outcasts anyway.

 

[wlmartin]

Dwarf? Think the trollslayers in WHFRP. Human? Shifter? Half Elf? The latter two being often outcasts anyway.

I love dwarves, if not just for their ability to second wind as a minor!
However we have 2 dwarves in the party and I dont want to turn it into "that" kind of party!

Human is an option since they are a lot more customizable (that human feat is useful!!)

Half Elf may work but I dont like Shifters, they are a bit too primal for my liking... This character is not going to be regal but then again wont be eating his own poop when no-one is looking

 

[cignus_pfaccari]

... I would trade all of the damage dice a Barbarian gets to actually hit something.

Against an average foe, one that with modifiers you can defeat say on a roll of 10 + modifiers, an Avenger using OoE over a Barbarian gets to hit on average 25% more often. I have not done the maths on that but I am fairly sure that the extra damage a Barbarian can do is reduced heavily by misses and if compared toe to toe against an Avenger that hits 25% more often, the Avenger may improve against him... and if he doesn't he would definitely hold his own.

The difference is, yes, you do comparable damage per round. But then you don't miss, and your hits are nothing to write home about. You won't get the big huge splats of damage,
just steady pats that add up over time.

Of course, with what you're trying to go for, by getting lots of things around you, you're losing your ability to hit more often for...big huge hits with more miss chance. Like the barbarian.

And on the reach weapon; Oath says Adjacent. Reach /= adjacent, so no OoE with reach.

That being said, more power to you. Avengers are a hell of a lot of fun. While I eventually switched my pursuit avenger to a storm sorcerer, that wasn't because the avenger wasn't fun, but becasue WotC monster designers think that melee types need to eat damage auras non-stop at high paragon on up.

Does anyone have a good suggestion for an Avenger Race that isnt 100% minmaxed
(ie has 1 of the 2 attributes I need to save me on point buying)
​

Minotaur.

+Wis and +Str. Good Perception, enjoys charging, potentially freaking scary initiative at epic, and you'll look fearsome as you whirl around the enemies surrounding you, threatening them with your Executioner's Axe and horns. The Str bonus will help you multiclass into Fighter so you can take Eternal Defender at epic and get your Large Executioner's Axe that does 2d6 Brutal 2.

Plus, you get to moo as you go around the battlefield. And avengers move a lot.

Goliath works just as well if you object to having a pelt, and might actually be better at absorbing hits. But you don't get to moo, and your perception won't be as good.

Brad

 

[mneme]

I do understand this however I can either do one of the following
1 : Combine it with an Action Point to get my OoE on the target
2 : Combine it with a shift so that I can move to the other side of my Target.

3. Don't take it. Trust me, if you use it, you or the party probably made a mistake. I never took Refocus Emnity either, actually, nor missed the lack. Really, your encounter and daily powers are there to make sure you get your oath; your at wills are for manipulating the battlefield. Although if you're Wis/Int, Bond of Censure solves the same problem far better; make a weaker attack (with OoE!) against your target and pull him into the position you want; then action point and hit with a stronger attack!

To those that worry the Avenger is not the best damage output out of the strikers, I know this fullwell currently playing a Barbarian with Executioners Axe, his damage is OFF THE HOOK! however it gets a bit boring to just drop monsters every 5 minutes.

Actually, you can do this regularly with avengers, too; Avengers may not have such a crit spike as Barbs do, but they crit nearly twice as often. A high crit weapon is a must (though you can stick with Great Axe for a long while before you've got a spare feat to upgrade to EA or Fullblade).

But you're quite right that the feel of the Avenger is one of the appeals of the class; not damage/damage/damage, but damage/control/leading, with a lot of nifty teleportation tricks, and a big slice of "never miss".

The powers I have will be combined with feat, utility and encounter powers that give me either a) Good Movement b) Ability to refocus my enmity.

Frankly, I'd start out assuming that you don't need Refocus and retrain into it if it's a problem. Good Movement is enough.

After all, the best way to make sure you get your oath is to have party members on either side of you; control powers like Sequestering Strike (don't worry about actually sequestering with it; it's much better for sucking a monster in towards the party, like the much higher level Crimson Stride) and Bond of Censure (the best power you rarely use).

The other option still is to sacrifice damage output and go for a Reach Weapon (where I am sure there are cool feats to do with Reach Weapons I ignore as I don't usually use them)

Doesn't work, sorry -- you need to be adjacent to your oath target to get the bonus. This is why the Avenger stance that grants reach is greeted with disdain.

Bond of Censure is special (as are a few other ways of getting ranged Oath rerolls), as it specifically says you don't need to be adjacent.

There is an interesting tactic with Censure of Retribution that I will take some getting used to. My DM will get used to me using Retribution Powers (specificaly encounter ones) that translate into "If there are enemies around me, they are going to be damaged" and he will choose to either a) Allow me to reap the rewards of these powers or b) Back off me a little

Right. This is why I think most of the Retribution feats are simply terrible. The base ability is very punishing, particularly when you throw in utilities that let you teleport when attacked and/or gain DR. So you're much better off with feats that multiclass for control (shaman to get a buddy who will block a square next to you or whatnot), or give you more damage or more defense.

I am going to RP this character as much as I can and although Power of Skill sounds handy, Ioun is really the only deity you can use it with and I don't like him for an Avenger... Who is he going to kill? Those that hunt librarians? Book burners?

Corellion! Also means you could be an elf, which seems to fit your goals of rp -and- is optimized for one Avenger build and excellent for the others.

I am still stuck on what Race to choose.

Gith are great. You're basically looking for +Wisdom races, as the Int bonus is nice, but not crucial (plus frankly Unity and Pursuit are much better supported).

Elves are very strong. They're +wis, the movmenet is great regardless of build, and the reroll power is fantastic with Oath -- as it's extremely likely to turn a miss into a hit when invoked (I always value reroll items and powers for Avengers for this reason).

But if that doesn't suit you, I'd look at other races with an Int bonus.

 

[wlmartin]

3. Don't take it. Trust me, if you use it, you or the party probably made a mistake. I never took Refocus Emnity either, actually, nor missed the lack. Really, your encounter and daily powers are there to make sure you get your oath; your at wills are for manipulating the battlefield. Although if you're Wis/Int, Bond of Censure solves the same problem far better; make a weaker attack (with OoE!) against your target and pull him into the position you want; then action point and hit with a stronger attack!


Actually, you can do this regularly with avengers, too; Avengers may not have such a crit spike as Barbs do, but they crit nearly twice as often. A high crit weapon is a must (though you can stick with Great Axe for a long while before you've got a spare feat to upgrade to EA or Fullblade).

But you're quite right that the feel of the Avenger is one of the appeals of the class; not damage/damage/damage, but damage/control/leading, with a lot of nifty teleportation tricks, and a big slice of "never miss".


Frankly, I'd start out assuming that you don't need Refocus and retrain into it if it's a problem. Good Movement is enough.

After all, the best way to make sure you get your oath is to have party members on either side of you; control powers like Sequestering Strike (don't worry about actually sequestering with it; it's much better for sucking a monster in towards the party, like the much higher level Crimson Stride) and Bond of Censure (the best power you rarely use).


Doesn't work, sorry -- you need to be adjacent to your oath target to get the bonus. This is why the Avenger stance that grants reach is greeted with disdain.

Bond of Censure is special (as are a few other ways of getting ranged Oath rerolls), as it specifically says you don't need to be adjacent.


Right. This is why I think most of the Retribution feats are simply terrible. The base ability is very punishing, particularly when you throw in utilities that let you teleport when attacked and/or gain DR. So you're much better off with feats that multiclass for control (shaman to get a buddy who will block a square next to you or whatnot), or give you more damage or more defense.


Corellion! Also means you could be an elf, which seems to fit your goals of rp -and- is optimized for one Avenger build and excellent for the others.



Gith are great. You're basically looking for +Wisdom races, as the Int bonus is nice, but not crucial (plus frankly Unity and Pursuit are much better supported).

Elves are very strong. They're +wis, the movmenet is great regardless of build, and the reroll power is fantastic with Oath -- as it's extremely likely to turn a miss into a hit when invoked (I always value reroll items and powers for Avengers for this reason).

But if that doesn't suit you, I'd look at other races with an Int bonus.

Thanks for all the input
A lot of the advise you gave RE : dont take refocus, just move about - dont take retribution as it sucks etc is what I managed to find myself on the WotC forums but still fantastic advise

I was going to play an Avenger of Ilmater, the RP story was better than Corellon however Power of Skill is to tempting to give up so switching to Corellon means less scope for my RP story but wanting to snuff out the Drow is fun in itself!

I do love the Elf Reroll Racial Trait, it is basically like a back of OoE reroll for situations where you need to strike with a power that gives you movement options so you can OoE the next turn.

I am going to be jumping around so much that the DM has really only 2 choices
1 : Just let me go 1-2-1 with a guy, get my OoE and have the rest of the party deal with the others
2 : Run around after me with double team type monsters to force my OoE out but then expose those monsters to flanking, OA and other penalties for not playing man 2 man defense!

 

[Tony Vargas]

I admit that the Avenger is something of an enigma to me. As a general rule, I don't find strikers that interesting to play, so I'm sure that has something to do with it. But, with /most/ strikers, I can at least kinda see the 'way to play' they're designed for. Archer Rangers hang back and shoot, and scoot around to escape melee, Rogues flank and sneak and bring the pain, Warlocks curse and skulk about and lay on conditions as much as damage.

Avengers... call out one guy, then make them run away, but chase them... sorta? Not really.

But, everyone I've ever watched play an Avenger has loved it. Including a Paragon level Avenger that I build for a convention game pre-gen (a build-to-concept, Avenger fit on the grounds of fluff, but I really didn't quite see how it was going to work). The player who chose it hadn't played an Avenger before, kicked ass pretty impressivelly but also got beat up pretty severely, and really owned one lurker that tried to gank her.

So, there's something there that works.


As an aside, what about the crit-on-doubles thing? See that seem to come up much in play?

 

[wlmartin]

I admit that the Avenger is something of an enigma to me. As a general rule, I don't find strikers that interesting to play, so I'm sure that has something to do with it.

I find that "ANY" class without much to do is boring. Barbarians for example, I play one at present and they are BORE-ING... Hit, Hit, Hit ... um Hit.

At least with the Avenger there is some flavor, you get some cool powers that have you weaving in and out of your opponents threat areas and you even have a power that lets you walk through walls ... come on!

But, with /most/ strikers, I can at least kinda see the 'way to play' they're designed for. Archer Rangers hang back and shoot, and scoot around to escape melee, Rogues flank and sneak and bring the pain, Warlocks curse and skulk about and lay on conditions as much as damage.

Avengers... call out one guy, then make them run away, but chase them... sorta? Not really.

The idea of the Pursuit Avenger that you are refering to isnt that you make them run away. This seems to be a big misunderstanding with the class.

Some people see the Censure feature and think that is where the Avenger gets his powers from. It really isnt.

The Censure is your consolation prize for not getting your two attacks for your OoE power since either a) The enemy is running towards his friends b) The enemy is surrounded by his friends and at least if you cant do 2 rolls against him, you can at least deal some more damage.

There are some clever Avengers that hide or invis so the mob has no choice but to move away and then they can use their censure but really as far as I can tell from the research and articles on forums, censure popping all the time means you are doing something wrong.

So to sum up, the point isnt that you WANT them to run away, it is that you are COMMANDING them to stay with you and face their judgement but if they do run away then you get some extra licks against them as well as some cool powers to chase them.

But, everyone I've ever watched play an Avenger has loved it. Including a Paragon level Avenger that I build for a convention game pre-gen (a build-to-concept, Avenger fit on the grounds of fluff, but I really didn't quite see how it was going to work). The player who chose it hadn't played an Avenger before, kicked ass pretty impressivelly but also got beat up pretty severely, and really owned one lurker that tried to gank her.

So, there's something there that works.

The big thing for me and I imagine for others is that you hit more often and CRIT more often.

Criting is one of the most joyous moments in D&D. My group went 4 sessions recently without a single attack crit, not ONE! And then we got 2 in one session! go figure!

Avengers will crit typically just a few fractions under 1 in 10 rather than 1 in 20, which is huge!

I have said this before but there is something written in the code of every D&D player that after rolling 1000s of d20s in their lives, yearn and hunger for the hit... getting the damage is the cherry on the cake but getting the hit is the cake itself.

Not to mention that Avengers are swift on their feet. They get powers and abilities that let them a) Move / Shift / Teleport towards their opponents quickly and b) Push / Pull their opponents around.

The Overwhelming Strike At-Will lets you shift one square and slide the enemy one square, either that you can choose not to undertake as the tactic demands... but in one instance you can be face to face with an enemy and then after the power is over you could decide to shimmy you and your enemy away from the surrounding enemies.. or better still just back away from the enemy to possibly setup a charge or other move.

Not to mention that if you take Power of Skill you can use Overwhelming Strike on a Charge or OA.. So you charge the Orc who has his back against the wall to avoid flanking, you pass your allies square at position SOUTH EAST, you attack the enemy at position NORTH, you shift to position NORTH WEST and your enemy is now flanked


As an aside, what about the crit-on-doubles thing? See that seem to come up much in play?[/QUOTE]