-
The VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX is coming! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!
Avenger, the headache class?
- Thread starter Orcus Porkus
- Start date
Orcus Porkus
First Post
Well that's the classic tactic of putting monsters between a rock and hard place. It's the best tactic. That's why a true fighter is invaluable for a party. He is the permanent rock. And everyone else can play the hard place if they have something to offer. It's fun to see the DM break sweat, because no matter what he does, it's wrong. It's the greek tragedy in D&D.
Hehehehe true.
But our DM is evil.
Our encounters are very hard and our rogue is usually afraid of flanking (that chicken!).
Our DM effectively counter this not by powerplaying, but just by making really tough encounters with few minions and many elites and standard creatures.
Rashak Mani
First Post
Does the avenger have enough damage output to effectively knockout artillery and mages ?
Usually woudn`t it be better to have someone helping to concentrate and kill enemy tough guys before heading to take down the ranged attacks ?
Usually woudn`t it be better to have someone helping to concentrate and kill enemy tough guys before heading to take down the ranged attacks ?
DracoSuave
First Post
Artillery units are highly accurate -and- highly damaging. They are high-threat targets, and their weakness is that they do not do well in melee, and they have no benefit to clumping together.
Avengers are -well- suited to demolishing them.
Controllers are also high-priority, and also Avengers do like eating them alive.
CapnZapp
Legend
What's giving me a headache is this talk about 'a' powers and 'b' powers and b1 and b2 and stuff.
What you have is powers that you can always make come about, and powers that depend on the DM, the adventure, and the monster (in some combination).
The ranger's Quarry is definitely an "A" power in that no matter which DM you've got and which adventure you run, there will always be a monster that is closest and which you can quarry. This in stark contrast to the 3E ranger, whose "favored enemy" feature were a decidedly "B"-class power. If you choose Orcs and you never encounter any orcs, you're hosed.
The rogue's sneak attack is somewhat a "B"-class power. If you only rely on flanking, it is less so, because unless the terrain makes flanking impossible, getting to flank is something you can succeed on all by yourself (and your allies).
If on the other hand you want to rely on sneaking and hiding to get your sneak attack; you're much more depenant on terrain (and lightning). This is then the "B"-class quality of sneak attack.
A Shaman has the ability to downgrade damage: if an enemy hits the Spirit Companion. This is to a large extent a B-class power, because if the DM tries hard to not "waste" attacks on the SC, the Shaman won't get to reduce damage to zero or at least a small amount very often.
The way casters in general get to choose which defense to target is to some extent a B class power too... if you always have to guess with no hints as to which defenses are weak for a particular monster.
If you're a player who can't stand leaving it up to the DM to decide how effective you'll be; don't choose to play these classes.
What you have is powers that you can always make come about, and powers that depend on the DM, the adventure, and the monster (in some combination).
The ranger's Quarry is definitely an "A" power in that no matter which DM you've got and which adventure you run, there will always be a monster that is closest and which you can quarry. This in stark contrast to the 3E ranger, whose "favored enemy" feature were a decidedly "B"-class power. If you choose Orcs and you never encounter any orcs, you're hosed.
The rogue's sneak attack is somewhat a "B"-class power. If you only rely on flanking, it is less so, because unless the terrain makes flanking impossible, getting to flank is something you can succeed on all by yourself (and your allies).
If on the other hand you want to rely on sneaking and hiding to get your sneak attack; you're much more depenant on terrain (and lightning). This is then the "B"-class quality of sneak attack.
A Shaman has the ability to downgrade damage: if an enemy hits the Spirit Companion. This is to a large extent a B-class power, because if the DM tries hard to not "waste" attacks on the SC, the Shaman won't get to reduce damage to zero or at least a small amount very often.
The way casters in general get to choose which defense to target is to some extent a B class power too... if you always have to guess with no hints as to which defenses are weak for a particular monster.
If you're a player who can't stand leaving it up to the DM to decide how effective you'll be; don't choose to play these classes.
Rashak Mani
First Post
Still is it better having the Avenger solo going after artillery in the back... or have a striker helping the defenders wipe out the brutes and soldiers ?
It seems to me it would be more practical killing quicker the front line in order to get the shooters in the back.... Avengers would be quite vunerable in case more monsters came along too... catching him alone and far from defenders.
I'm going to have to borrow Magic the Gathering terminology here.
Over on the Magic boards, they sometimes refer to abilities by animal names. A "rattlesnake" card or ability, for example, is one that threatens to retaliate against someone if they do something you don't like. For example, a card which reads, "Sacrifice this card to destroy target attacking creature" is a rattlesnake ability. Your opponent is put in an awkward position. He can see the card. He knows that if he attacks you with his best creature, you'll destroy it. But if he doesn't, he doesn't attack very effectively.
D&D has rattlesnake abilities. Marks are the big, obvious example. "If you attack someone other than me, something bad happens to you." So the monster attacks the marker in order to avoid the bad thing, or else the monster suffers a lot of additional bad stuff from violating the mark.
Some of the Censures are rattlesnake abilities.
The Censure of Pursuit says to ranged attackers, "You have three choices, all of them bad. If you use a ranged attack in melee, I'll take an opportunity attack with this big huge sword, and I'll even roll twice to hit. You won't like that! And if you shift back a space then make a ranged attack, next round I'll get a big bonus to damage. You won't like that either. And if you stay and attack with a melee attack, then you didn't get to use your best stuff, you'll probably miss me because I've got great armor, and you'll do lousy damage compared to your favorite ranged attacks."
The Censure of Retribution messes up melee types in a similar way. The Avenger is usually strong enough to solo most melee enemies. He's got good armor, a good weapon, and good hit points. Plus he rolls his attacks twice most of the time. He doesn't kill things quite as fast as the other strikers, but he generally get beaten up like them either. So what could the monsters do about it? Well, they could gang up on him. But if they do, his damage skyrockets. It might be best to leave him alone, but if they do, he'll just keep killing their ally.
And Censure of Unity is just straight up teamwork bonuses. The damage bonus is low enough that your enemies probably won't treat it like a rattlesnake, and its easy to acquire, so you'll probably see a lot of it. Its like sneak attack lite. Simple and functional, and occasionally devastating the last monster standing.
So that's the thing with these abilities. Its not so much about whether you get their effect, as whether you control monster behavior by means of threats.
Which has a lot to do, actualy, with why I don't like a lot of the Avenger's powers. They either attack at range, sacrificing the doubled attack roll (one ranged attack is good for variety, lots is not), or they simply function as larger rattles of exactly the same type as their already rattlesnake based class. So many of the Pursuit powers say to the enemy, "Ok, move away from me now and you're REALLY screwed!" Well, they were already pretty screwed. How much more screwed do they need to be before they just decide to stay where they are? I have the same problem with Fighter powers that boil down to marking the enemy, but better. They were already marked. That wasn't enough? A lot of rattlesnake classes have these problems.
Over on the Magic boards, they sometimes refer to abilities by animal names. A "rattlesnake" card or ability, for example, is one that threatens to retaliate against someone if they do something you don't like. For example, a card which reads, "Sacrifice this card to destroy target attacking creature" is a rattlesnake ability. Your opponent is put in an awkward position. He can see the card. He knows that if he attacks you with his best creature, you'll destroy it. But if he doesn't, he doesn't attack very effectively.
D&D has rattlesnake abilities. Marks are the big, obvious example. "If you attack someone other than me, something bad happens to you." So the monster attacks the marker in order to avoid the bad thing, or else the monster suffers a lot of additional bad stuff from violating the mark.
Some of the Censures are rattlesnake abilities.
The Censure of Pursuit says to ranged attackers, "You have three choices, all of them bad. If you use a ranged attack in melee, I'll take an opportunity attack with this big huge sword, and I'll even roll twice to hit. You won't like that! And if you shift back a space then make a ranged attack, next round I'll get a big bonus to damage. You won't like that either. And if you stay and attack with a melee attack, then you didn't get to use your best stuff, you'll probably miss me because I've got great armor, and you'll do lousy damage compared to your favorite ranged attacks."
The Censure of Retribution messes up melee types in a similar way. The Avenger is usually strong enough to solo most melee enemies. He's got good armor, a good weapon, and good hit points. Plus he rolls his attacks twice most of the time. He doesn't kill things quite as fast as the other strikers, but he generally get beaten up like them either. So what could the monsters do about it? Well, they could gang up on him. But if they do, his damage skyrockets. It might be best to leave him alone, but if they do, he'll just keep killing their ally.
And Censure of Unity is just straight up teamwork bonuses. The damage bonus is low enough that your enemies probably won't treat it like a rattlesnake, and its easy to acquire, so you'll probably see a lot of it. Its like sneak attack lite. Simple and functional, and occasionally devastating the last monster standing.
So that's the thing with these abilities. Its not so much about whether you get their effect, as whether you control monster behavior by means of threats.
Which has a lot to do, actualy, with why I don't like a lot of the Avenger's powers. They either attack at range, sacrificing the doubled attack roll (one ranged attack is good for variety, lots is not), or they simply function as larger rattles of exactly the same type as their already rattlesnake based class. So many of the Pursuit powers say to the enemy, "Ok, move away from me now and you're REALLY screwed!" Well, they were already pretty screwed. How much more screwed do they need to be before they just decide to stay where they are? I have the same problem with Fighter powers that boil down to marking the enemy, but better. They were already marked. That wasn't enough? A lot of rattlesnake classes have these problems.
Flipguarder
First Post
I feel like the avenger, and to a lesser extent the rogue, have to work much harder to get their damage than other strikers. Rangers have it the easiest, just point and shoot. I feel like this should be compensated with a significantly higher damage when their requirements are met. This seems true for the rogue, but not so much for the avenger.
DracoSuave
First Post
A persuing avenger Sequestering Strikes the artillery TO the front lines, and a retribution avenger off the front lines -isn't- vulnerable but kills his target faster.
Similar Threads
