Avenging Paladin - Fair or not?

[Gloombunny]

Once you realize that Attacks on the Run (ranger daily 9) doesn't require two weapons, you won't want a paladin daily 9.


Also: did somebody just refer to a paladin using both Hammer Rhythm and Heavy Blade Opportunity?

 

[vhailor]

IMO the Pladin dailies, at aleast the first level at terrible.
What daily do you believe is the best to trade:
1 Paladin's Judgment (change with Villain's Menace)
5 Martyr's Retribution (change with Rain of Steel)
9 Crown of Glory (change with Thicket of Blades)

 

[TheGizzard]

I've played a couple of sessions now as this 1st level STR-based Paladin:

16 STR +3
16 CON +3
11 DEX +0
10 INT +0
14 WIS +2
13 CHA +1

Dwarf, Speed 5
18 AC (Plate Armor) / 1d10+3 Long Spear / +5 att bonus / HP 31 / 13 surge
Feat: Fast Runner; +2 speed on charge or run
Daily: Holy Strike, Valiant Strike
Encounter: Piercing Smite
Daily: Paladin's Judgment

I've noticed a couple things that worry me and so I'm looking for feedback on the build. The campaign I am playing in has a couple very optimized characters, which end up being the benchmark for effectiveness. Anyway, what worries me:

1) Mediocre synergy between healing and tanking roles. Hard to heal optimally while in melee.
2) All attack powers are melee based; nothing interesting at range.
3) No control powers such as a Daze.
4) Very dieroll dependent; only the daily power has an effect on miss, and with an attack bonus of +5 misses are relatively frequent.
5) Basic attack and At-Will powers disappointingly similar v. single opponent; lacks flexibility.
6) No explicit pushes/pulls in these abilities.

So, how can I improve this character?

 

[JiffyPopTart]

1) Mediocre synergy between healing and tanking roles. Hard to heal optimally while in melee.
2) All attack powers are melee based; nothing interesting at range.
3) No control powers such as a Daze.
4) Very dieroll dependent; only the daily power has an effect on miss, and with an attack bonus of +5 misses are relatively frequent.
5) Basic attack and At-Will powers disappointingly similar v. single opponent; lacks flexibility.
6) No explicit pushes/pulls in these abilities.

1. Use your Lay on Hands ability primarily on yourself to keep upright and swinging in combat. Your main ability to kill monsters lies not in whacking them yourself (even with a STR build) but in tying them up and taking their damage while the strikers kill everything. Leave healing others to the cleric/warlord except in emergencies.

2. All the "range" powers you are going to get are going to use a holy symbol instead of a weapon. Its how the paladin was designed. Notice you also don't start with decent ranged weapons selection.

3. As its designed. You may find a control option here or there but its not your major focus so its gonna be sparse.

4. As are almost everyones at-will and encounter powers. If it makes you feel better the infernal warlock even has nothing-on-a-miss dailies as well. If you are concerned about the low to-hit then switch up weapon choice for a sword and ditch CHA entirely for a higher STR.

5. See #3

6. See #3

You might want to ditch the whole thing and try playing a fighter instead. It would address many of your issues.

DS

 

[cignus_pfaccari]

I've played a couple of sessions now as this 1st level STR-based Paladin:

16 STR +3
16 CON +3
11 DEX +0
10 INT +0
14 WIS +2
13 CHA +1

Dwarf, Speed 5
18 AC (Plate Armor) / 1d10+3 Long Spear / +5 att bonus / HP 31 / 13 surge
Feat: Fast Runner; +2 speed on charge or run
Daily: Holy Strike, Valiant Strike
Encounter: Piercing Smite
Daily: Paladin's Judgment

So, how can I improve this character?

I pretty much agree with what Sabathius said. In addition, I have a few things.

Well, first, you're running on a 16 on your main attribute. While not a killer, switching to a +3 prof. weapon and having an 18 in Str would help significantly. I see that you're trying to go for Polearm Gamble, but that's a ways away, and you can always retrain feats and such, and being able to hit and do damage more reliably helps you get there. Those're going to add to almost all your combat rolls as you gain levels.

Second, why're you starting out with Fast Runner? It's not likely to get much use very often in many fights, and you're likely going to get more use out of another feat, like Weapon Focus: Polearm or something like that. You can always retrain feats, but it's best to take the most universally beneficial feats first, since you'll have the most time playing with them.

You might want to carry some javelins and/or throwing hammers to be able to do *something* at range. The Dwarven Hammer proficiency feat might synergize well with that, since that adds damage to all hammers and axes. You could also use a Maul and get more total damage (or if you have AV and the DM doesn't crap masonry over the Mordenkrad, use one of those).

Brad

 

[TheGizzard]

OK, thanks for the feedback; I'm still trying to get a handle on 4E Paladins, so all feedback is useful.

You might want to ditch the whole thing and try playing a fighter instead. It would address many of your issues.

Well, truly, I've given it some thought over the last couple sessions. ;-)

But if a character switch is a good idea, my question there is: "is a STR Paladin a just a weaker/harder class than the Fighter?" (Is the Paladin the Monk/Bard of 4E?) Or is it that the Fighter might fit my play-style better? (Honestly, the character I am envious of is the Cleric-Ranger hybrid who can heal like crazy and always seems to have lots of options to help the party. The Paladin seems kind of limited compared to him.)

In addition, I have a few things...

These are the things I have been wondering also; whether I made mistakes in those particular choices. (Except Javelins, which I have but did not bother to list. Yay +STR throwing weapons!).

The point of the Long Spear and the Fast Runner was to try to offset the Dwarven 5 base speed. I cannot tank if my strikers keep outrunning me. But this mobility comes at a price; no +3 prof weapon, and a feat which could have been spent on Toughness or Weapon Proficiency.

I wondered if anyone would comment on having 31 HPs; and the syngergy with Toughness. But it seems people are looking at my low attack bonus as a primary problem; I'll take a look at what I can do to improve that; either by re-adjusting my stats (but what stat to sacrifice?!) or by getting a Weapon Profiency type feat.

 

[Witchfinder General]

The point of the Long Spear and the Fast Runner was to try to offset the Dwarven 5 base speed. I cannot tank if my strikers keep outrunning me. But this mobility comes at a price; no +3 prof weapon, and a feat which could have been spent on Toughness or Weapon Proficiency.

During my 4E test campaign (KotS), the human fighter did fine with Speed 5 and AC 19 (scale armor and large shield). I believe a paldin would have been equally effective. To address your concerns about speed, there was no question about the defender keeping up with the rest. Instead, the defender was on the front line, and the rest of the party positioned itself around him. MMO analogies are not always accurate, but this quote from City of Heroes does fit: "In an indoor mission, don't run ahead of the tanker."

I wondered if anyone would comment on having 31 HPs; and the syngergy with Toughness. But it seems people are looking at my low attack bonus as a primary problem; I'll take a look at what I can do to improve that; either by re-adjusting my stats (but what stat to sacrifice?!) or by getting a Weapon Profiency type feat.

Survivability is very important for a defender, so Toughness is a solid choice.

For a Dwarven Avenging Paladin, I would go for a gruff character (dump Cha) and use large shield (for better Reflex defense) with axe or hammer (for racial ability synergy). Array 18 13 13 10 10 8:

Str 18 (+4)
Con 15 (+2)
Dex 10 (+0)
Int 8 (-1)
Cha 10 (+0)
Wis 15 (+2)

Feat: Toughness or Dwarven Weapon Training

For the level 9 power, I would probably pick one stands alone or crown of glory.A slightly more charismatic version of this character might start with Con 14, Wis 14, Cha 12.