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Avoiding Railroading - Forked Thread: Do you play more for the story or the combat?

Is it just my imagination, or have sandbox proponents (usually old-school gamers, but not always) stretched the definition of "Railroad" to mean "Anything that's not Sandbox"?

-O

If we dispose with dicey terminology lets say that anything that makes player choices inconsequential whether overt or covertly then there is a railroad. A lot of adventures simply do this in order for them to work as written. Remember also that railroad does not always equal bad/evil 100% of the time. If a railroad type of situation comes up and no one has an issue with it then its not really a problem at all.
 

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Remember also that railroad does not always equal bad/evil 100% of the time. If a railroad type of situation comes up and no one has an issue with it then its not really a problem at all.

Perfect example: My little brother used to *beg* me to run an "adventure" where he could "be" Drizzt "like in the books." He WANTED me to run the novels as campaign - not so that he could create a different story or ending, but so that, according to him, he could enjoy the same story in a different way. Everyone's different.
 

If we dispose with dicey terminology lets say that anything that makes player choices inconsequential whether overt or covertly then there is a railroad. A lot of adventures simply do this in order for them to work as written. Remember also that railroad does not always equal bad/evil 100% of the time. If a railroad type of situation comes up and no one has an issue with it then its not really a problem at all.
I'm not saying that some sandbox proponents are unfairly pushing

Non-Sandbox = Railroad = Bad

(although you will find some grognards who will argue this point, particularly if you drop by TheRPGSite)

I'm saying that

Non-Sandbox = Railroad

Isn't a justified equivalence in the first place. Like it or not, Railroad is a pretty loaded term, and this comparison doesn't have to be absolute.

-O
 


I'm not saying that some sandbox proponents are unfairly pushing

Non-Sandbox = Railroad = Bad

(although you will find some grognards who will argue this point, particularly if you drop by TheRPGSite)

I'm saying that

Non-Sandbox = Railroad

Isn't a justified equivalence in the first place. Like it or not, Railroad is a pretty loaded term, and this comparison doesn't have to be absolute.

-O

If we dispose with dicey terminology lets say that anything that makes player choices inconsequential whether overt or covertly then there is a railroad.

-simply restating my position on what is railroading and what isn't. There is no value judgement intended from this observation.
 

Is it just my imagination, or have sandbox proponents (usually old-school gamers, but not always) stretched the definition of "Railroad" to mean "Anything that's not Sandbox"?
That's more or less what I was getting at in post #20 upthread.

The point is, if you are writing a plotline for either the Players or the PCs to follow, you are railroading. You are merely choosing to do it openly or not. Another form is a warping of the world around the PCs to ensure whatever plans you have prepared remain intact. You need to let the consequences of the PCs ripple outward or they might as well not be taking actions. You lose the game to DM fiat.
There are ways that player choices can matter which don't involve this sort of ingame cause-and-effect so much. For example, if the GM decides that, whatever happens, the session will culminate in the Demon King appearing for a climactic encounter, BUT if what the Demon King says to the PCs depends on what they've been doing hitherto, and how the PCs respond to the Demon King is up to them (eg the GM doesn't go nuts and declare "game over" because the PCs align with the Demon King) then we have a situation in which:

(i) ingame cause-and-effect is not free of GM fiat (ie Demon King appears no matter what);

(ii) player choices are far from irrelevant to the game.

I don't think that this is a railroad. To me it looks like vanilla narrativist play.
 

My players actually seem to want railroading. To a certain extent, I can understand it ... IMO an RPG session is more focused and more fun with a concrete goal, and sometimes it's difficult or impossible to reach a consensus on a goal without a little DM heavy-handedness.

Also, to a certain extent it's probably my fault, because up to now (12th level in an Eberron game) I've been using published adventures, only punctuated by other game events and adventures.

But now, after they themselves created a pretty complete list of "loose threads" in the campaign, I've repeatedly said, "Where we go from here, and in what order, is completely up to you guys," and I've repeatedly heard back things like, "How much downtime will we have before something happens?"

Sigh.
 

If we dispose with dicey terminology lets say that anything that makes player choices inconsequential whether overt or covertly then there is a railroad.

-simply restating my position on what is railroading and what isn't. There is no value judgement intended from this observation.
The problem is that there is sometimes a huge difference between "irrelevant" and "leads to the same outcome." We're playing RPGs. The journey is as important as the destination.
 

The question is how do the really great DMs out there manage to keep intricate campaigns with great story elements without making the players feel like they've been railroaded?

Ah, this is really the key, I'd say. You can have a plot that runs on big ol' rails, but you have to make sure the train has shock absorbers so the PCs never feel them.

IMO, the most important thing is to get the players to buy in to your plotline. Once they're invested in reaching a particular goal, it becomes vastly easier to keep things on track; all you have to do is show them a path leading toward that goal, and they're very likely to follow it. But you have to recognize that you can't force them to buy in. If they don't like your chosen plot, you're gonna have to scrap it and make a new one.

I generally start off with a giant obvious plot hook. If something about a PC's background piques my interest, or if the group has expressed interest in a particular type of campaign, I'll build off that. Otherwise, it will probably be a standard "save your little chunk of the world" quest. Usually the PCs take the hook. If they don't, okay, I'll improvise something and we'll spend the rest of that session futzing around. Then I'll come back next session with a new plot hook. Repeat until the players bite on one.

Alternatively, the PCs may take it into their heads to undertake some epic task all by themselves, without any plot hook provided by me. That's cool too - in fact, it's better, because players who've set their own goal are usually extra committed to it. I'll improvise through the session, then sit down afterward and work out a plot based on whatever it is they've decided to do.

Once the PCs have bought into the plot, then it's just a matter of maintaining forward motion and keeping them from getting bored. I give them milestones (not in the 4E rules sense, but in the sense of "a series of smaller goals on the way to the big one") so they can tell they're making progress, and try to make sure they always have a sense of what they need to accomplish next. I mix up combat, social, and exploration encounters so they don't fall into a rut, and try to make sure every encounter has something new and different going on so it doesn't become a slog. Nothing sends PCs off the rails faster than boredom.

When designing encounters, remember that PCs are notorious for talking to folks you expected them to attack, and attacking folks you expected them to talk to. Plan for both contingencies and make sure neither is going to wreck your plot.

Above all, be flexible and don't sweat the small stuff. The PCs do not have to do everything the way you imagined them doing it. If they come up with an unexpected way to reach a particular milestone, roll with it; make them work for it but let them have it in the end. If they abandon your milestones altogether and go in a totally unexpected direction, just make stuff up for the rest of the session, then sit down afterward and figure out a new way to reach the objective from the PCs' current location.

A question about the meaning of "railroading": in most of the posts above, it seems that "not railroading" means letting the PCs go where the players want them to go in the gameworld regardless of the GM's preference.

But is this sort of sandbox the only alternative to railroading? As I indicated in my post above I don't think so, but I'm curious about what anyone else thinks.

It's more or less a given in my games that the PCs can go anywhere in the game-world the players want to go. My job is to make sure that the place they want to go is the place where the plot rails run. Usually that means leading the PCs along the rails. Sometimes it means ripping up the rails and laying them back down in whatever direction the PCs are heading.
 
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