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Avoiding Railroading - Forked Thread: Do you play more for the story or the combat?

I should also have gone back to one of the points in my long post: Embracing surprises and allowing unexpected twists to help build the story (in other words, giving up some of that "precious control") is one key to implementing good stories in a railroad-free manner.
 

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Greetings!

Well, I think when it comes to *Story*--I, as the DM, don't particularly have any *story* to tell, adhere to, or railroad the players into. The players in many ways build their own stories--from their own choices, their particular characters, their personal backgrounds. I add a diverse range of elements, events, and individuals that interact with all of those personalized details, and the *stories* spin off and develop from there, in an organic manner.

Wherever the PC's go, wherever they meet new people or creatures, there are stories waiting for them. The PC's get involved in many different ways, and I key off of their individual motivations, and then develop a series of NPC's and free-floating encounter points, that gell together in whatever form that is the most fun, in as reasonable and consistent manner with the various people or creatures involved.

The stories take on a natural, organic form, almost telling themselves through the PC's own choices and subsequent reactions.

I can't even really conceive of how to *railroad* the players. "Railroading" would feel so artificial and...contrived to me.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
 

It took me years to figure this out... And here's the simple solution.

GMs SHOULD FOCUS ON CHARACTERS NOT STORIES.

By populating your world with interesting characters for whom the PCs can interact with at will, the game is freed from the confines of story structure. Every time your PCs enter a crowded bar, they will have options. Who do they want to talk to? And if the characters in that bar are well-conceived in advance, at least one of them will lead to something.

this is my problem - when everyone in the room wants something - the PCs think of it as NPCs with quest signs above thier heads. The Story is not so much a railroad as an ongoing problem that PCs are aware of and involved in.
In most cases it more out of character to head of in a direction based on whim thant it is to work on solving the main problem.

When presented with too many choices, my players start bumbling around..
"do you want to join the relief army to fight the orc invasion, use the army as cover to dig into the ashes of your past, follow the trail of the missing abbot, or try and find out why the demand for slaves has increased? I need to know so I can prep the next session"

"we don't know, but the digging into our past was really (ex-PC's) thing. Who is willing to pay us?"

"The army pays badly but you get shares of loot. Otherwise try the city with all the slavers, your sure there is work to be had the there."
 

I agree with most of this. Merely cosmetic theme/flavour probably isn't meaningful for many players. But to make it meaningful I don't think requires giving it mechanical expression in the narrow sense. It can be enough that the gameworld - and hence the parameters of future choices open to the PCs - changes in response to it.

This is agree with. If the gameworld reacts very differently to the last-ditch vs triumphant battle choices, then i think the choices/results that the players accomplished earlier is meaningful.

I guess an easy way would have been...

1. In the case of last-ditch: The town survives relatively unscathed vs.
2. Necromancer attacking in a triumphant manner: The heroes defeat the necromancer but the town has been mostly destroyed and the necromancer cant destroy another town (or something like this).

Then the world will react very differently to the heroes and different plots/results etc would stem from the the two resolutions.

In my earlier thoughts i was more caught up in the effects of previous resolutions on the battle, i should have broadened my thoughts to the effects of previous resolutions on the impact the final battle will have on the rest of the campaign.
 

I don't agree with you. As I mentioned in my post, I run story-heavy campaigns not just because that's what I like to run as GM, but also because that's what I like to play as a player.

It's not an issue of egotism, it's an issue of preferred style. Darrin's original post wasn't about how to avoid story--it's about how to make story work well without railroading. Avoiding story may help avoid railroading (though it by no means eliminates it!), but it doesn't answer the OP's question.

You can have story-oriented games, it's writing them out ahead of time and not altering the story to fit player actions that's the problem. A too-detailed outline is like a straitjacket: if you as the DM spent 8 hours preparing this material, you'll probably try your damnedest to make sure it sees play.

The cool kids, on the other hand, make it up as they go along. Asimov wrote 506 books without an outline--it can be done!
 

When presented with too many choices, my players start bumbling around..
"do you want to join the relief army to fight the orc invasion, use the army as cover to dig into the ashes of your past, follow the trail of the missing abbot, or try and find out why the demand for slaves has increased? I need to know so I can prep the next session"
Evil Halfling, I totally sympathize and understand your situation. I've been there. What I have proposed, my theory, that GMing works better when you focus on developing strong NPCs, is based on a lot of reflection, feedback, and playing in other GMs groups. It took me years to realize.It takes practice. It's a fundamental shift in the way the game is managed. But, I found it ultimately produces more engaging and engaged players, and that means better experiences for the GM as well.

GMs with a strong interest in, and background in, the storytelling arts have trouble peeling themselves away from the script. For GMs like myself who cut their teeth on AD&D 2nd Edition or any of the gaming products of the 1990s, it's particularly difficult. There was a paradigm shift in gaming around the time of 2nd ed that redefined the hobby away from the "game" and toward "storytelling". This was, I think, partly due to boredom with the status quo of hack and slash, but also perhaps due to an air of pretension that had infiltrated the industry. If you read the published adventures from the early to mid-nineties, there were lots of creative stories, but they seemed written to be read, not played. It nearly killed the industry.

Thankfully, new creativity entered the marketplace, and a new format for open-ended, player-directed storytelling emerged. Now players are very sensitive about control. But how does a GM juggle creativity and endless possibilities?

The secret, it turns out, is also the secret to improvisation. Here's something actors never tell you: improvisation does NOT mean making everything up on the spot.

Have you ever watched "Who's Line is it, Anyway?". If you haven't, I'll paraphrase. It's an improv comedy sketch show. Comedians take cues from the audience and then launch into remarkable improvized sketches. So, Dana Carvey turns to the audience as says "Name a dead celebrity!?", too which people shout answers. And then Dana hears "Elvis" and he launches into a sketch about Elvis. As he busts into a seemingly off-the-cuff and totally hilarious musical number, everyone in the audience and at home is amazed at his quick wit.

But, here's the catch... Dana didn't make it up "on the spot". Improv is performance slight-of-hand. He knew somebody in the audience would say Elvis and he was listening for it. And his script was written so that he could easily insert Elvis, or Britney or whoever else was a sure bet to be called. There's still a lot of "off-the-cuff" improvisation in the sketch, but the big punchlines have all been worked out between him and his teammates in advance of the performance. The more you do improv, the quicker and better you become at predicting what the audience will say.Given unlimited choices, it's amazing how often people will take the easiest answer.

So, the reason I share this with you is that the GM can learn from master improvisers. If you prep your players with loaded questions (i.e. colourful NPCs with equally colourful motivations) and prepare the big punchlines (major plot points, locations, etc), then everything else falls into place.

It needs to be made clear that your players SHOULD bumble around. In order for the game to work properly, and in order to give your players the control they desire, you have to let them do whatever they think they should do. Don't ever tell them they have to go on a quest. Don't ever condemn their decisions. They have become accustomed to being lead around by their GM. They need to learn self-sufficiency. That may mean they face certain doom, but that's a lesson learned. They'll be smarter next time.

It's amazing how quickly players pick up on cues once they know they are expected to lead the adventure.

As for preparing when you don't know what your players are going to do... bare this in mind: if you don't railroad them forward, the players will progress slower. A 5 hour session may not result in much actual task completion. If the PCs are in a dungeon, they may only explore 3 or 4 rooms. If the PCs are in town, they might not leave the bar. But that does not mean the session was boring. It means the session was emmersive, complex. My point here being that you will have time to prepare and revise between sessions. You don't need your whole campaign mapped out at the beginning of the adventure. In fact, that's a terrible waste of time. If the PCs do get beyond your prep, introduce a random encounter. The good GM can skillfully weave random encounters into any situation and make it feel intentional. And it prevents the PCs from getting too far ahead of you.

That's my advice. Don't wear it out.
 
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You can have story-oriented games, it's writing them out ahead of time and not altering the story to fit player actions that's the problem. A too-detailed outline is like a straitjacket.

We're certainly in agreement there.

The cool kids, on the other hand, make it up as they go along. Asimov wrote 506 books without an outline--it can be done!

It's wonderful that that worked for Asimov, but 99% or so of other novelists use a different technique. Whatever works for you works for you.

For me, I need an outline to help establish the key elements of the story and its subplots, and the timing of their entry into the story. That doesn't mean a straightjacket, nor is it set in stone from the beginning. It's a tool to help the campaign unfold in a satisfying and fun manner--and nothing more sinister than that.
 

I enjoy campaigns with heavy NPC interaction; the 'story' can become part soap-opera, part reality-tv show at times!

For DM's who are story-focused, keep in mind that you are running an interactive world for players to, well, interact with. While is it oftentimes tempting to force them down your story path to a pre-set conclusion, it seldom works.

You can alleviate this by creating plots over stories. All a story is, really, is a series of connected plot devices. When I DM, I try to run an episodic series of adventures instead of one grand overarching uber-plot. In a way, I write my adventures as if they were stand-alone TV episodes. In a TV series, you CAN have an overarching plot, but every one in a while there is a standalone episode that is run separately from the "main" plot that showcases a character or character's past, interaction with teammates, or just some random one-off something-to-do ("filler" episode).

To this end, when creating stories, it's far more important to think in terms of 'plots' rather than try and wedge the players into doing exactly what you want to reach your story conclusion. Like a TV show, each plot can be described in a sentence or two. It is the actions taken by the players that decide whether or not the plot gets resolved (they beat the Big Bad, find the MacGuffing, or eat the Big Mac).

But what if the players don't do what you envision them doing in your story? Here's my solution: create an NPC party that travels in parallel with the players, but isn't always on-camera. Because you always control the NPC's, you can dictate how they do/did things, and you can share your vision with the other players in-game by way of PC-NPC interaction (with the actual "B" team, with other NPC villagers et al who have encountered the B-team, or actual evidence of the B-team's exploits)

I have done this with my current solo campaign. My player (and co) enter a dungeon, search it high and low, and leave victorious. Meanwhile, I send the B-team in behind him and make them be more thorough than he was. Sometimes, I'll send them ahead into the next level of dungeon and have them come back and report what they found. Sometimes I'll have the player encounter the NPC group in the middle of an important discovery. It drives my player crazy because he is now competing with these NPC's to find more treasure, get further ahead, and be "better" than them. It's all smoke and mirrors, but I advance my NPC B-team in levels and/or throw them when I feel that a dungeon is getting too stale or I feel that it's time for a "one-off" from the main plot.
 

For me, I need an outline to help establish the key elements of the story and its subplots, and the timing of their entry into the story. That doesn't mean a straightjacket, nor is it set in stone from the beginning. It's a tool to help the campaign unfold in a satisfying and fun manner--and nothing more sinister than that.

What if the players don't want to include those key elements in their story?
 

What if the players don't want to include those key elements in their story?

I'm not sure I know what you mean here.

If I need to introduce an NPC, a faction, or an event, I simply put it on stage--generally with a reason for the players to interact with it at least a little.

In my experience, it's pretty rare for players to turn their back on an interesting hook, but if they don't react as expected, I wait until a break in play (between sessions or between adventures) and examine how the way they did react affects the plotline.

Sometimes, it turns out that the element is not that important after all, and can just be dropped. Sometimes, I reskin the element and bring it in at a future opportunity. Sometimes I leave it as is, and find a new excuse to bring it back in.

Most often, it turns out the way the players reacted, while unexpected, actually opened new doors and gives me new ideas on how to advance the story along its arc. Maybe because what they did do can be tied back into the story, or maybe because the story will work as well (or better) with this twist I didn't plan from the beginning.

Look, when you plan an encounter, you probably have a few ideas in mind about what the bad guys are going to do, how they might take advantage of the terrain or counter the PCs abilities or whatnot. Those ideas are hardly a "straightjacket" on how the encounter is going to unfold. An adventure or campaign arc story is a bit more involved, but the same principals apply.
 

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