[BadAxe] HOHF: D question about the Paragon

[Joshua Randall]

Hey Wulf (or other BadAxe guys),

I'm really enamored of the Paragon PrC from Heroes of High Favor: Dwarves. However, there is one thing that troubles me about it: how its granted caster levels stack up with the base class that qualified for the PrC.

A dwarf could theoretically qualify for the Paragon PrC at Ftr4/Pal2 under 3.5 rules (or Ftr4/Pal1 under 3.0 rules, the difference being when lay on hands kicks in). So, at that point, the base character does not cast spells or have a caster level. Relevant text from the 3.5 SRD:

"Beginning at 4th level, a paladin gains the ability to cast a small number of divine spells [....] Through 3rd level, a paladin has no caster level. At 4th level and higher, her caster level is one-half her paladin level."

Now, the Paragon PrC grants a slow (every other level) increase to the base class's caster level progression. But, since the base character in this example (Ftr4/Pal2) doesn't cast spells or have a caster level, what happens when he gains sufficient levels in Paragon? I am confused.

What is the spellcasting ability and caster level of a...

Ftr4/Pal2/Paragon1
Ftr4/Pal2/Paragon2
Ftr4/Pal2/Paragon10

Thanks very much!

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

I don't have my book so I paraphrase:

"He adds half his Paragon level to any previous divine spellcasting class in order to determine spells per day and spellcaster level."

Ftr4/Pal2/Paragon1
Spellcasting ability of Pal2-- ie, none.

Ftr4/Pal2/Paragon2
Spellcasting ability of Pal3-- ie, none.

Ftr4/Pal2/Paragon10
Spellcasting ability of Pal7 (2 + 10/2): 1/0/0/0

... With a caster level of 3 (7/2-- paladin caster level is one-half, round down).

If your GM wanted to be a serious hard-ass, I suppose he could take the interpretation that a Pal2 isn't technically a divine spellcasting class, so you'd need to be at least Pal4 (with a bonus spell!) to qualify for spellcasting ability bennies from Paragon.

Hope that helps!

Wulf

 

[Joshua Randall]

Thanks for the quick reply. I am the DM, and usually a hard-ass. But in this case I think I will not force any would-be Paragons to be .../Pal4 if they want to acquire the Paragon spellcasting. I will let them stack half their Paragon levels with their paladin levels to determine their effective spellcasting level. (Did I just invent a new term, ESL? Yikes.) So, basically, at Ftr4/Pal2/Paragon4 the character would (assuming at least Wis 12) be able to cast 1st level paladin spells. I don't think this is unreasonable considering we're talking about total character level 10.

[rant] Paladins already have to wait for their spells until pitiably late in life. By the time a paladin can cast something wimpy like cure light wounds, the cleric and even the bard have cure moderate. By the time a paladin can cast his signature spell, holy sword, at 14th or 15th level, the wizard can mimic that spell with limited wish! [/rant]

Let me also take this moment to say that the Paragon's "bonded weapon"[*] benefit in place of a special mount is way, way cool. In fact, I think it's better for a dungeoneering paladin to gain the bonded weapon than it is to gain the special mount, even using the 3.5 rules for summonable mounts.

[*] Yes, I know it's not really called a bonded weapon, but I also don't have my book with me.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

[rant] Paladins already have to wait for their spells until pitiably late in life. By the time a paladin can cast something wimpy like cure light wounds, the cleric and even the bard have cure moderate. By the time a paladin can cast his signature spell, holy sword, at 14th or 15th level, the wizard can mimic that spell with limited wish! [/rant]

The paladin's most useful 1st level spell, in my opinion, was Bless Weapon. That was 3.0... not sure how 3.5 affects things-- again, working without the books, but I assume that being able to bless the weapon will, at the very least, make it good type damage-- useful for demons and devils, which is just about right for level 10.

It's important to remember that, like all of the HOHF prestige classes, the paragon is essentially a "multi-class" with fighter, so it's appropriate to advance the spellcasting only every other level. In other words, the paragon's spellcasting ability advances at exactly the same rate as a Ftr/Pal's rate would advance, assuming the player kept his two classes in balance.

Glad you like the bonded weapon. I agree-- it's much more interesting to me than the special mount, even considering the 3.5 changes to the mount. Although, I will say, the new summonable mount makes a lot more sense for dwarves-- at least now they don't have to stable some poor creature down in those caves and tunnels ALL THE TIME. Summon up a lizard or a beetle or even that celestial horse-- but only when you need them.

But I'd still rather have a talkin' axe with the attitude of a long-dead dwarven ancestor...

Wulf