Bag of holding and dimension door

Sektat · Dec 11, 2007

One of my players claims there is a problem of having a bag of holding while using dimension door. But I see no problems in the spell description or the item description?!

Kat' · Dec 11, 2007

You cannot place a Bag of holding inside an extradimensional space, such as a Portable Hole or a Rope Trick, however Teleportation spells travel through the Astral Plane and are thus not extradimensional.

Patlin · Dec 11, 2007

Bag of holding and portable hole cause a problem. Rope trick and bag of holding might depending on the DM, but the recomendation is that they should not. Teleport spells are no problem.

Bagpuss · Dec 11, 2007

Kat' said:
You cannot place a Bag of holding inside an extradimensional space, such as a Portable Hole or a Rope Trick, however Teleportation spells travel through the Astral Plane and are thus not extradimensional.

Nope. A Bag of Holding is a nondimensional space. You cannot put a nondimensional space inside another nondimensional space. Rope Trick and a Portable Hole (when open) are extra-dimensional spaces so there wouldn't normal be a problem with either.

BUT a Portable Hole also opens a nondimensional space, so things aren't normally destroyed when it is folded up.

SRD: If a bag of holding is placed within a portable hole, a rift to the Astral Plane is torn in that place. Both the bag and the cloth are sucked into the void and forever lost. If a portable hole is placed within a bag of holding, it opens a gate to the Astral Plane. The hole, the bag, and any creatures within a 10-foot radius are drawn there, the portable hole and bag of holding being destroyed in the process.

That does not apply with Rope Trick since that is always an extradimensional space, or with Dimension Door and other forms of teleportation are not nondimenstional in nature.

Personally I allow a Bag of Holding to be inside a Portable Hole so long as it isn't closed, when it is folded it goes from extradimensional to nondimensional in nature, and creates the rift.

RAW there is actually nothing to stop you putting one bag of holding inside another, as far as I can find.

UltimaGabe · Dec 11, 2007

Bagpuss said:
Nope. A Bag of Holding is a nondimensional space. You cannot put a nondimensional space inside another nondimensional space. Rope Trick and a Portable Hole (when open) are extra-dimensional spaces so there wouldn't normal be a problem with either.

Actually, the terms non-dimensional and extradimensional are used pretty much interchangeably, depending on the source. (I, for one, have never heard of a bag of holding referred to as a non-dimensional space, it's always the example of an extradimensional space in my mind.) Anyway, as far as arguing about semantics or what causes a problem with what, it's all up to the DM, as the rules have changed back and forth a few times. The 3e Rope Trick spell specifically mentioned possible baddies happening when combined with a Rope Trick spell, yet the 3.5 spell makes no such reference. So talk to your DM and see if he really think it's necessary.

mvincent · Dec 11, 2007

Bagpuss said:
A Bag of Holding is a nondimensional space. You cannot put a nondimensional space inside another nondimensional space. Rope Trick and a Portable Hole (when open) are extra-dimensional spaces

D&D uses those terms interchangeably (i.e both terms are used to describe portable hole).

For the OP, there is no problem with Dimension Dooring with a bag of holding.

As for other combo's, here is some additional information:
From the Rules of the Game:
"Extradimensional spaces are notorious for creating spectacular and dangerous effects when placed inside each other; however, the dangers can be somewhat overrated. One bag of holding can be placed safely inside another (of course, the first bag's weight counts against what the second bag can hold). Likewise, one portable hole can be placed safely inside another.

A bag of holding placed inside a portable hole, however, creates a rift to the Astral Plane. (See the bag of holding excerpt.) Oddly enough, objects aren't drawn through the gate.

It's best to treat a Heward's handy haversack as a bag of holding when it interacts with a portable hole.

Other interactions between extradimensional spaces are possible. For example, the rope trick and Mordenkainen's magnificent mansion both create extradimensional spaces. The rope trick spell description makes a passing mention of "hazards" associated with placing one extradimensional space inside another, but gives no details. (See the rope trick excerpt.)

I recommend that you ignore this reference. Your campaign won't be improved if rope trick effects implode when someone carries a bag of holding or portable hole inside. A Mordenkainen's magnificent mansion should likewise prove benign if someone carries a bag of holding or portable hole inside."

From the 3.0 FAQ (written by the same author as the RotG):
“It’s a general rule that you can’t mix items containing nondimensional or extradimensional spaces (things that are bigger inside than out) with each other or with portable holes. Such combinations tend to strain the fabric of the cosmos. Putting one bag of holding within another is just like putting the bag into a portable hole. Items that function like bags of holding, such as Heward’s handy haversacks, cause the same mishaps when mishandled.

Note you can freely go plane hopping with portable holes, bags of holding, and the like. Spells that produce their own extradimensional spaces, such as rope trick, pose no danger to occupants who may be using portable holes, bags of holding, and the like."

For earlier reference: from the 2ed guide to High-level campaigns, section on magic items:
"Extradimensional Spaces: These items tend to produce spectacular effects when one is placed within another. The following items contain extradimensional spaces: bag of holding, bag of transmuting, flatbox†, girdle of many pouches, Heward’s handy haversack, portable hole, and pouch of accessibility. The following spells produce extradimensional spaces: extradimensional pocket†, Mordenkainen’s magnificent mansion, and rope trick.

In most instances, placing one extradimensional space inside another opens a rift to the Astral Plane, casting both the items and their contents through the rift. The items and anything contained within them are scattered randomly in the infinite depths of the Astral Plane."

Storme · Dec 11, 2007

IF the player has a problem with Dimension Door and Bags of Holding, he is really suggesting that when using Dimension Door, the entire contents of the bag of holding, and the entire contents of the Astral Plane tear through a rip in the universe...into the Astral Plane and are lost.

Hmm....

Hypersmurf · Dec 12, 2007

UltimaGabe said:
The 3e Rope Trick spell specifically mentioned possible baddies happening when combined with a Rope Trick spell, yet the 3.5 spell makes no such reference.

Ah?

-Hyp.

Storme · Dec 12, 2007

Hypersmurf means, "Yes it does in 3.5." Hehe. They Smurfmeister can be cryptically wise! You gotta love him!

Its a silly rule anyway. The WoTC guys admit (as mvincent pointed out above) its a pretty hinky rule. From what I understand WotC is pretty much convinced, as I am, that negative Bag/Hole/Rope Trick effects are subject to careful reconsideration.

I suspect we won't see that in 4.0 so you'll be able to enter a rope trick carrying a bag of holding without destroying the space-time continuum. Just as you can enter the astral plane with a portable hole without annihilating the outer planes (hehe...I kill me).

Storme