Bags of Holding inside Mord's Mansion: Result?

[green slime]

Theres also the annoying problem of what you are going to do with a bag of holding full of valuable stuff. What, leave it outside the mansion for people to take?

No, you:

1) teleport back to town, dump it in the local "PC vault, version IVb" teleport back, then enter the MMM.

2) set a guard or fifteen outside the mansion to watch over it.

3) don't use PH, HH, and BoH if MMM is a major part of your strategy.

4) don't use MMM if PH, HH, and BoH are a major part of your scavenging theory.

5) enter the MMM just to see what happens!

6) research a spell to get around the problem, similar to Leomund's Secret Chest.

Why is the problem "annoying"? Why isn't it an interesting challenge? Why not embrace the DnD archetypes and traditional wierdness? Or maybe we should just cut all players some slack, and give them whatever they want, whenever they want it?

 

[javcs]

Why is the problem "annoying"? Why isn't it an interesting challenge?

Because we have no RAW answer, or any other, as to what happens. We've only got speculation, which means what happens, if anything, it varies from DM to DM.

 

[Sejs]

Subsequent FAQ and Rules of the Game advice seems to be to ignore that note, and not worry about the extradimensionality unless Bags of Holding, Portable Holes and possibly Handy Haversacks are interacting directly with each other.

*nod* The general idea is basically 'don't try to nest extradimensional loot storage items in an attempt to have infinite capacity or the universe will smite you'. Beyond that, just normal day-to-day storage that -isn't- an attempt to go cheesy? No problem.

 

[KarinsDad]

Bags of Holding and Portable Holes use nondimensional spaces, not extradimensional spaces.

Mord's spell and most other spells use extradimensional spaces.

Since the terms are different, it would seem to be that RAW indicates that a nondimensional spaces placed within a different nondimensional space creates a problem, but extradimensional spaces can be used ok with nondimesional spaces since nothing in the rules indicates a problem.

 

[werk]

Bags of Holding and Portable Holes use nondimensional spaces, not extradimensional spaces.

From portable hole "When spread upon any surface, it causes an extradimensional space 10 feet deep to come into being."

I think the designers were a little confused on non-dimensional and extra-dimensional and used them fairly interchangably.

Back to square one, just keep them apart.

 

[Question]

Generally having a group of unprepared PCs suddenly dumped into the far realm is instant death. Everything about that place has led me to believe even a group of high level characters, fully prepared and with ample knowledge of the far realm, can only survive there a small amount of time before going mad, mutated or getting slain by hugely powerful, nightmarish creatures who's abilities are largely unknown. Im not saying the PCs couldnt realistically survive or find a way back to the material plane, but it would require huge luck, a lot of DM fudging and most likely will include things of questionable plausibility.

Also :



1) teleport back to town, dump it in the local "PC vault, version IVb" teleport back, then enter the MMM.

There is not always a "local PC vault", and it is a high possibility the party caster does not have a teleport spell available.

2) set a guard or fifteen outside the mansion to watch over it.

Lets say all we have is a standard party, who gets to stand outside to watch over a bag, especially since the entire party is likely to require the rest?

3) don't use PH, HH, and BoH if MMM is a major part of your strategy.

What if its not, and i still want to use it every now and then anyway? Still doesnt change anything.

4) don't use MMM if PH, HH, and BoH are a major part of your scavenging theory.

See above.

5) enter the MMM just to see what happens!

I can picture it now : DM "It is the players responsibility to be fully informed of the consequencfes of their actions blah blah blah blah blah"

6) research a spell to get around the problem, similar to Leomund's Secret Chest.

This assumes you have downtime available, some campaigns are too fast paced.

 

[KarinsDad]

From portable hole "When spread upon any surface, it causes an extradimensional space 10 feet deep to come into being."

I think the designers were a little confused on non-dimensional and extra-dimensional and used them fairly interchangably.

Back to square one, just keep them apart.

Which is why it makes sense to consider carrying items (e.g. Bags of Holding, Heward's Haversack, Portable Holes, etc.) and even spells which create a storage space (e.g. Familiar's Pouch) to be nondimensional spaces where they cannot be placed inside each other and to consider most spells (e.g. Rope Trick, Mord's Mansion, etc.) to be extra-dimensional spaces.

Problem solved.


Go back to the original reason for this. The 1E designers did not want 50 20 pounds Bags of Holding to be placed into a Portable Hole for easy storage so that PCs could not strip dungeons down to the brass fittings.

It was not to prevent PCs from going to the Astral Plane with their Bag of Holding.

Solve the real problem, don't get caught up on wording minutia.

 

[mvincent]

From the 3.0 FAQ:
"Note you can freely go plane hopping with portable holes,
bags of holding, and the like. Spells that produce their own
extradimensional spaces, such as rope trick, pose no danger to
occupants who may be using portable holes, bags of holding, and the like."

From the Rules of the Game:
"The rope trick spell description makes a passing mention of "hazards" associated with placing one extradimensional space inside another, but gives no details. (See the rope trick excerpt.)

I recommend that you ignore this reference. Your campaign won't be improved if rope trick effects implode when someone carries a bag of holding or portable hole inside. A Mordenkainen's magnificent mansion should likewise prove benign if someone carries a bag of holding or portable hole inside. "

From the 2ed guide to High-level campaigns, section on magic items:
"Extradimensional Spaces: These items tend to produce spectacular effects when one is placed within another. The following items contain extradimensional spaces: bag of holding, bag of transmuting, flatbox†, girdle of many pouches, Heward’s handy haversack, portable hole, and pouch of accessibility. The following spells produce extradimensional spaces: extradimensional pocket†, Mordenkainen’s magnificent mansion, and rope trick.

In most instances, placing one extradimensional space inside another opens a rift to the Astral Plane, casting both the items and their contents through the rift. The items and anything contained within them are scattered randomly in the infinite depths of the Astral Plane."

Also note: D&D use non-dimensional and extra-dimensional pretty much interchangeably (i.e. both are used in the description of a portable hole).

 

[Pielorinho]

No, you:

1) teleport back to town, dump it in the local "PC vault, version IVb" teleport back, then enter the MMM.

2) set a guard or fifteen outside the mansion to watch over it.

3) don't use PH, HH, and BoH if MMM is a major part of your strategy.

4) don't use MMM if PH, HH, and BoH are a major part of your scavenging theory.

5) enter the MMM just to see what happens!

6) research a spell to get around the problem, similar to Leomund's Secret Chest.

Why is the problem "annoying"? Why isn't it an interesting challenge?

It's an opinion, not a statement of fact; but I also wouldn't find it an interesting challenge to have to describe what spices I put in the nightly stew, or to tell the DM how I pack my knapsack to avoid overbalancing in the middle of battle, or to have to figure out the myriad little chores that occupy my daily life. Logistics bore me, personally, so personally I prefer that they be minimized in my gaming experience.

Why not embrace the DnD archetypes and traditional wierdness? Or maybe we should just cut all players some slack, and give them whatever they want, whenever they want it?

In my opinion, yes; we should give the players (if we include the DM in this) whatever they want. This is their leisure activity, after all; they're not doing this for pay. MOst players, of course, want a challenge, so we ought to give that to them. Most player do not want to have to describe their knapsack packing technique, so we ought not give that to them. If your players (and the DM) enjoy the logistical challenge of figuring out how to sue the teleport spell, then that's what you should do; if y'all don't, then that's not what you should do.

Daniel

 

[green slime]

Is it a problem when PCs tackle how to transport all the treasure back to base before they can acquire these spells and magical items? IMO, its not a problem. Players always have, and always will. Why, then, is it suddenly a problem when they acquire these items and abilities? Why is it a problem, when it can all be handwaved? Why is it a logistical nightmare to be faced with this problem, when it is well known in advance? It isn't an unnecessary level of detail (akin to knapsack packing technique).


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Question's musing is strange, IMO:

There is not always a "local PC vault", and it is a high possibility the party caster does not have a teleport spell available.

On one hand, the PCs are using a 7th level spell, yet are not utilizing teleport at all. Neither do the 13th level characters have a "base of operations, or a place they call "home". Lack of teleport "high possibility"? While it may occur, due to school specialisation, game flavour, player choice, I wouldn't regard it as a "high possibility", but that is obviously a game specific problem, and not a rules problem.

Lets say all we have is a standard party, who gets to stand outside to watch over a bag, especially since the entire party is likely to require the rest?

Is the party can spend a lot of time arguing and bickering who gets to rest for 8 hours? Seems more like a player problem, than a rules problem. There is a blatantly obvious answer: Whomever needs the rest the most, rests. Having backup healing ability, at 13th level+ means that it shouldn't be a big problem at this level.

What if its not, and i still want to use it every now and then anyway? Still doesnt change anything.

Your statement doesn't change anything either... I don't agree with you, and point out a series of scenarios with which the original problem can be resolved in game, and, yet, you aren't satisfied, because you want your cake for after as well as eating it.

I can picture it now : DM "It is the players responsibility to be fully informed of the consequencfes of their actions blah blah blah blah blah"

What is the problem with this? People are naturally curious? I fail to see you argument in this at all? The above statement is very strange. WHy did you assume the DM would send you all off to the far realm?!?

This assumes you have downtime available, some campaigns are too fast paced.

The default rules expect a slower pace...

Anyway. To summarize:
1) Some campaigns are too fast paced to resolve this issue through PC research.
2) Some campaigns will contain 13th+ level parties without access to teleport.
3) Some campaigns contain players and/or characters which can never agree to cooperate.
4) Can't convince the DM to ignore the "rule"? Or bend it slightly?

Cake. Eat it or save? Ignore rule or not? And you are stuck in this place where all of the above are valid? Still want to eat that cake and have some later?

====

Because we have no RAW answer, or any other, as to what happens. We've only got speculation, which means what happens, if anything, it varies from DM to DM.

And this is a problem because...???

If anything happens in the game, it is because there is a DM, and players, there. Why does this feel unsafe? If you don't trust the DM, don't play his game. Why is this a problem?!? Playing in two FR campaigns, even in the same FR region, same FR dates, same FR adventure, different DM's will have different things happen.

Why do we expect to be spoonfed everything, with no independant thought involved?