D&D 5E Balancing "consumable" powers vs "per time" powers (Alchemists, Grenadiers etc) - the search for an alternative

So... would roughly 3 activator per level per adventure make sense? Something completely different? I'm not expecting the "right" answer from anyone, I just want suggestions so we can hash it out.
I think d20 modern gave a number of action points per level equal to your level, so a level 17 character would have 17 action points to spend before they hit level 18; so that is an example of a limited resource that is limited on a per-level basis.

It really comes down to how strong you want these bombs to be, relative to what the wizard is casting, and how strongly you're willing to force a certain number of encounters per level. Personally, I can't recommend any system that rations power-use on a per-level basis, because it forces the player to budget based on a meta-game assumption that they will be gaining levels at a predictable rate.

Maybe you're okay with that, though. At that point, the ability to design a system is primarily limited by which parameters you are willing to arbitrarily force. You already said that you're not happy with the idea of using wealth as a limiting factor, because it limits the types of campaigns you can play. What about the number of encounters per level? Are you willing to force that? The game already assumes a certain number of encounters per day, and I'm sure you've seen how well that works out.

If you're willing to assume the number of encounters per level, and you want these bombs to be used roughly once per encounter, then you can just multiply that out to get your number of bombs per level; you'll still face the issue that they will not use them against easy encounters, and pile them up for hard encounters, but that's not significantly different than the issue already plaguing wizards (especially as the number of encounters per level approaches the number of encounters per day).

The only reasonable-ish alternative I can think of is to make the acquisition of the critical reagent require a skill check that has an escalating DC for repeated attempts, which decays again at a set rate. That may not work so well under Bounded Accuracy, though.
 
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IMO: The more grenades you carry, the more at risk you are that they will explode/break.

So yes, you could carry around 300 gernades. But the next time a kobold hit you, and you fail your DC 300 Con check.... BOOM!


Part of leveling as an alchemist is making grenades that don't blow up in your face... as much.
 

third, even then it would tend to reward "ingredient hunts" which likely are not all that much fun. Sure once in a while it can be a story but... over and over as the character levels up with (presumably) tougher and tougher ingredients... How much fun would it be to have to roleplay the fighter getting his magic sword sharpened **again**

Thank you for replying. I think it definitely would be best if most of this was done in downtime/behind the scene. It *does* leave a plot hook the party can hook that PC (and hopefully, the rest of the party comes along) but it wouldn't be fun if it was the focus of the campaign.
 

The game already assumes a certain number of encounters per day, and I'm sure you've seen how well that works out.

That's a good point certainly

The only reasonable-ish alternative I can think of is to make the acquisition of the critical reagent require a skill check that has an escalating DC for repeated attempts, which decays again at a set rate. That may not work so well under Bounded Accuracy, though.

*very* intriguing proposal, thank you! I think this is the most constructive comment I've received on this, well, *ever*. (I can think of several ways of avoiding the bounded accuracy issue - a per level bonus to this specific check for example - so I'm not concerned with that problem).

So... I think I can figure out the odds to get X amount of reagant, on average (on good days it could be above X, on bad days below). I still have two problems.

1: What "X" should be - clearly it should be a number that increases with character level, but what's our target? And what's the frequency of these checks?

2: Extended downtime: Apart from the GM saying "please don't do this", how do we deal with a period in the campaign where a prolonged period of time happens? (you overwinter in the city of SuchandSuch, waiting for the nearby mountain pass to the Ice Forest to be opened... kinda deal). Maybe a "dry up the local supply" rule?
 

Thank you for replying.

In what way does this product address my question though? I fail to see the relevance... I'm not saying it's a bad suggestion, you just didn't say what it was about that product that would help me. Details man! :)

If you're looking for a combat system that feels more realistic and less abstracted, then the Codex is worth considering. It was written by a person who actually wields real life midevil-ish weapons so the rules in the book are influenced by how actual combat would work.
 

If you're looking for a combat system that feels more realistic and less abstracted, then the Codex is worth considering. It was written by a person who actually wields real life midevil-ish weapons so the rules in the book are influenced by how actual combat would work.

... I humbly request that you re-read my first post.
 

Another approach is to require a full lab to create the potions/grenades/etc.

Basically, you have to have a lab to create the items. At 1st level, you basically use whatever small room you can carve out of your home or apartment (and you better have put in the points to have a home; no inn-hopping for you), and the tools and equipment allows you to craft N items per day, if you spend all day on it. There is no limit to the number you can craft and store, though. Well, as long as you have access to your lab. Without your lab, you might be able to improvise some extras based on ingredients and materials you have on hand, but it will be extremely limited.

OK, now you have 100 grenades. Time to go on an adventure? Eh, hold up. If you don't want all those grenades to blow up in your face, you need to pack them away carefully (eg: crate filled with packing straw), and you need a method of hauling them around (no, you don't get to carry a crate of 100 grenades on your shoulder). You can have a handful of them on you at any one time, in prep for any fight, but you need at least a short rest to go back and unlock the crate and restock what you have on you.

Oh, and be careful about anyone casting Fireball on your wagon. Otherwise, fireworks time. (On the other hand, haul that crate over behind the warehouse and set it off, and the warehouse will be leveled. So yes, going full nova is possible, but now you're completely out of your consumable and ineffective for anything else.) And if you get chased out of a city by an invading army, you likely just lost your lab.

At higher levels you get greater proficiency in your craft, so you can craft more per day (and/or better quality), up to the limit imposed by whatever lab space you have. If you want to make better grenades or potions or whatever, you need to spend the money on a larger lab and better equipment. Thus money becomes a significant limiter, with sunk cost in property at every city you want to be able to work on this stuff in. Might be fine if all your adventures are around, say, Waterdeep, but if you travel the world, you've basically just got what you packed in your suitcase at the start, and when that's gone, oh well.

I wouldn't charge the player cost per potion made, or send them on ingredient fetch quests or whatever, but I would charge a cost per month to pay rent and supply costs to keep their lab active. If they try to go cheap, and rent a flophouse in the slums where all the lab smells get the neighbors angry at them, they'd be far more likely to come home to a damaged or robbed lab, which shuts down their ability to build more until they fix everything. A more expensive house means you better be bringing in regular amounts of money, or you might end up defaulting on the mortgage, with the repo office hauling everything away.

In general, money is a limiter, but it doesn't directly affect the power of the player. You don't get more grenades by just throwing more money at it. The number of grenades is limited by time and carrying space. And if they try to get around it with a bag of holding or similar, I would probably either have concoction stability go down rapidly in an alternate dimension space, or just flat out require that the character has to spend time ensuring the stability of the concoctions each day, else risking duds or grenades that go off at the slightest disturbance (or potions that have a chance to roll on the Wild Magic table). This again becomes a time limiter. You can do maintenance on your 100 grenades, but you might not manage to get a full night's sleep afterwards. Exhaustion sucks.

The number of grenades/potions/etc you can carry on you at any given time (ie: before refilling with a short rest) increases over time as you become more efficient at the crafting, and able to create better yields in smaller sizes. Mechanically it's still X uses per short rest, but it also has conditions you have to fulfill in order for the rest to be effective. And of course the reasons it's X times per rest or whatever are very different, and can affect other aspects of play.

There are ways to get around the X/rest limit, but they should also have risks. If your carriage is trying to escape the bandits chasing you, the grenadier might pop open his crate and just start tossing grenades willy-nilly, without regard for the normal numbers limit. But the jostling carriage might knock a couple of the grenades loose, and have them rolling around the floorboards as everyone panicks about the carriage turning into a fireball.

Really, it seems relatively easy to balance a class using consumable items with more stuff that can go wrong in the adventure. The only real problem is: Bag of Holding. If a bag of holding allowed you to bypass all the risks, it would severely unbalance things. I'd either ban bags of holding entirely, or add significant downsides to keeping 'special' consumables inside of them.

Aside from that, most of the time they'd still be limited by the X/rest mechanic, which is easy enough to work with and figure out how to keep it from getting out of hand, and not cause a lot of headache keeping track of things during play. The player could still bypass it, but doing so should introduce significant extra risks as well.
 

As others have pointed out, the main issue is rationing use of capabilities.

(I'm going to use the grenade example, but this holds for any consumable.)
In order to actually be worth keeping track of, a consumable has to have an effect more powerful than a cantrip/attack action. Whether it only has the power of a superiority dice, or a 3rd level spell slot is immaterial to the discussion on the renewing mechanic. (Although very important to the actual numbers/time/resources to balance the class.)
Different games have very different amounts of money, or downtime given to the characters, so a mechanic that is based on those wouldn't work outside a very narrow section of games.
Furthermore, these items should decay, or have a maximum number available at any one time, to prevent stockpiling amounts greater than those that the class is balanced around having available.

'Nova' capability is an important factor in character balance. The ability to be able to dump resources into improved performance when you really need it is very powerful. For example the Paladin's ability to blow all of their spell slots in a few rounds of combat when facing off against the BBEG is relatively inefficient on a "damage over the daily 25 combat rounds" basis. However it is amazing on the 'need to make that dead right now!' basis.

A class based on consumables would have an issue with excessive nova capability. Most classes are limited to their daily (long rest and/or couple of short rest) capabilities in terms of stockpiling/using nova capabilities. However the consumable-based class that you seem to be working on wouldn't have daily/rest limited capabilities. Thus they could blow their entire stock on the first encounter and be ineffective for the rest of the campaign, or save their resources to the end and completely obliterate a final villain that was supposed to be a strenuous and climactic encounter.
Some method of 'throttling' is necessary.
 

I missed this reply for some reason... and I still hope someone has the magical solution (arise thread, ARISE)

As others have pointed out, the main issue is rationing use of capabilities.

(I'm going to use the grenade example, but this holds for any consumable.)
In order to actually be worth keeping track of, a consumable has to have an effect more powerful than a cantrip/attack action.

Absolutely. Do people keep track of their arrows? ;)


Furthermore, these items should decay, or have a maximum number available at any one time, to prevent stockpiling amounts greater than those that the class is balanced around having available.

I think that limiting the total number is needed, and I think it could be controlled by scarcity. I'm just not sure how scarce they should be - this is where I'm asking for advice.

'Nova' capability is an important factor in character balance. The ability to be able to dump resources into improved performance when you really need it is very powerful. For example the Paladin's ability to blow all of their spell slots in a few rounds of combat when facing off against the BBEG is relatively inefficient on a "damage over the daily 25 combat rounds" basis. However it is amazing on the 'need to make that dead right now!' basis.

Indeed. In my campaign the paladin was dominating, and all it took to reign him in was a few longer adventuring days. He's still really good (and not bitter, because he has those boss auras now), but he's not absolutely crushing everything (plus the player playing the monk has finally figured out how to use their character ha).

A class based on consumables would have an issue with excessive nova capability. Most classes are limited to their daily (long rest and/or couple of short rest) capabilities in terms of stockpiling/using nova capabilities.

This can be balanced in a few ways. One is that most of the consumable don't be uber-powerful, and that the one(s) that are very strong be very rare. The character still only has one action per round.

However the consumable-based class that you seem to be working on wouldn't have daily/rest limited capabilities. Thus they could blow their entire stock on the first encounter and be ineffective for the rest of the campaign, or save their resources to the end and completely obliterate a final villain that was supposed to be a strenuous and climactic encounter.
Some method of 'throttling' is necessary.

Yes. My proposed method is scarcity, and I need advice on said scarcity. Basically, between adventures the PC would make rolls to find the "special resources" needed to make their consumable (a good roll would give a little more than a bad roll). As they go up in level, their access to the special resources increase.
 

To achieve this alternate type of balance, I would not go special ingredient.

Why?
1 it shifts the power of the class away from the player. It's very much a case of "the gm day by day says how powerful I am" and that being an overt mechanic is rather unsatisfying. *

2 it's a resource tree that really has no analog for the other classes. It ends up "weaponizing" whatever the real limiter is - time, good etc.

Instead I would consider only using a resource that others already have, so, HD comes to mind.

So, instead of the GM controlled external resource, you spend an internal resource to access these "limited" powers.

So, this may wind up with say fighters keeping HD and using them for short rest cures while certain caster wind up burning theirs for spell recovery. That even more emphasizes the health difference.

But regardless of how you structure it, imo limitations that stay in character are best for core mechanics of how a class or character works. I use external resources more for cross-character elements - bonus stuff - like say boons or charms.

* Consider for example the Wild Magic Sorcerer. It has a feature and feature refresh dependent on how often a GM chooses to call for a roll. Someone starting out as a character has no idea whether that means a chance with most every spell slot cast or if the GM will almost never call for them. Does he get tides of chaos use once between rests or multiple times with wild magic surge chances in between?

This leads some to avoid it in open play with different GMs, as the class play is so heavily set/defined by the GM de jour and pretty much every class guide says outright before considering talk it thru with your GM because it's so huge a range of options.

That kind of dependency for core mechanics of a class is rarely a good design choice.
 
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