Balancing out Racial Abilities

[WhosDaDungeonMaster]

High-Powered Versions

Here is the first draft of the revised races and are more high-powered. I tried to highlight all the changes in red. I also have low-powered versions that I will post later.

Now is the time I welcome critiques about the changes, whether or not something is too much, etc. If anyone has alternative options they want to share, please let me know and thanks!

DRAGONBORN

Ability Score Increase: Your Wisdom score increases by 2, and your Strength score increases by 1.
Age: Young dragonborn grow quickly. They walk hours after hatching, attain the size and development of a 10-year-old human child by the age of 3, and reach adulthood by 15. They live to be around 80.
Alignment: Dragonborn tend to extremes, making a conscious choice for one side or the other in the cosmic war between good and evil. Most dragonborn are good, but those who side with evil can be terrible villains.
Size: Dragonborn are taller and heavier than humans, standing well over 6 feet tall and averaging almost 250 pounds. Your size is Medium.
Speed: Your base walking speed is 30 feet.
Draconic Ancestry: You have draconic ancestry and the wisdom of the ancients flows through you. Choose one type of dragon from the Draconic Ancestry table. Your breath weapon and damage resistance are determined by the dragon type, as shown in the table.
Breath Weapon: You can use your action to exhale destructive energy. Your draconic ancestry determines the size, shape, and damage type of the exhalation.
When you use your breath weapon, each creature in the area of the exhalation must make a saving throw, the type of which is determined by your draconic ancestry. The DC for this saving throw equals 8 + your Constitution modifier + your proficiency bonus. A creature takes 2d6 damage on a failed save, and half as much damage on a successful one. The damage increases to 3d6 at 6th level, 4d6 at 11th level, and 5d6 at 16th level. After you use your breath weapon, you can’t use it again until you complete a short or long rest.
Damage Resistance: You have resistance to the damage type associated with your draconic ancestry.
Darkvision: Due to your draconic ancestry, you have superior vision in dark and dim conditions. You can see in dim light within 60 feet of you as if it were bright light, and in darkness as if it were dim light. You can’t discern color in darkness, only shades of gray.
Thick Skin: Your natural Armor Class is 10 + your Consitution modifier (minimum 1). You have 1 point of Damage Reduction against non-magical bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing damage.
Languages: You can speak, read, and write Common and Draconic. Draconic is thought to be one of the oldest languages and is often used in the study of magic. The language sounds harsh to most other creatures and includes numerous hard consonants and sibilants.
 
DWARF

Ability Score Increase: Your Constitution score increases by 2, and your Strength score increases by 1.
Age: Dwarves mature at the same rate as humans, but they’re considered young until they reach the age of 50. On average, they live about 350 years.
Alignment: Most dwarves are lawful, believing firmly in the benefits of a well-ordered society. They tend toward good as well, with a strong sense of fair play and a belief that everyone deserves to share in the benefits of a just order.
Size: Dwarves stand between 4 and 5 feet tall and average about 150 pounds. Your size is Medium.
Speed: Your base walking speed is 25 feet. Your speed is not reduced by wearing heavy armor.
Armor Expertise: When wearing light, medium, or heavy armor that you are proficient with, your Armor Class improves by 1. You can don and doff any armor you are proficient with in half the normal time. You can don or doff a shield as a bonus action.
Dwarven Combat Training: You have proficiency with the battleaxe, handaxe, light hammer, and warhammer.
Dwarven Resilience: You have advantage on saving throws against poison, and you have resistance against poison damage.
Dwarven Toughness: Your hit point maximum increases by 1, and it increases by 1 every time you gain a level.
Shadowsight: Due to spending much of your life underground, you have superior vision in dim conditions. You can see in dim light within 60 feet of you as if it were bright light. You can discern colors in dim conditions, but they are muted and not as vibrant. You gain no benefit in conditions of darkness.
Stonecunning: Whenever you make an Intelligence (History) check related to the origin of stonework, you are considered proficient in the History skill and add double your proficiency bonus to the check, instead of your normal proficiency bonus.
Tool Proficiency: You gain proficiency with the artisan’s tools of your choice: smith’s tools, brewer’s supplies, or mason’s tools.
Languages: You can speak, read, and write Common and Dwarvish. Dwarvish is full of hard consonants and guttural sounds, and those characteristics spill over into whatever other language a dwarf might speak.

OPTIONAL SUBRACE: Duergar. You have Darkvision instead of Shadowsight. You can speak, read, and write Undercommon. At the option of the DM, you lose Armor Expertise, but gain Duergar Magic (see SCAG).

 
ELF

Ability Score Increase: Your Dexterity score increases by 2, and your Intelligence score increases by 1.
Age: Although elves reach physical maturity at about the same age as humans, the elven understanding of adulthood goes beyond physical growth to encompass worldly experience. An elf typically claims adulthood and an adult name around the age of 100 and can live to be 750 years old.
Alignment: Elves love freedom, variety, and self- expression, so they lean strongly toward the gentler aspects of chaos. They value and protect others’ freedom as well as their own, and they are more often good than not. The drow are an exception; their exile has made them vicious and dangerous. Drow are more often evil than not.
Size: Elves range from under 5 to over 6 feet tall and have slender builds. Your size is Medium.
Speed: Your base walking speed is 35 feet.
Elf Weapon Training: You have proficiency with the longsword, shortsword, shortbow, and longbow.
Fey Ancestry: You have advantage on saving throws against being charmed, and magic can’t put you to sleep.
Keen Senses: You have proficiency in the Perception skill.
Magical Bloodline: You know one cantrip of your choice from the wizard spell list. When you reach 3rd level, you learn one first-level spell from the wizard spell list. When you reach 5th level, you learn one second-level spell from the wizard spell list. You regain the ability to cast these spells after a Long Rest. Intelligence is your spellcasting ability for these spells.
Shadowsight: Spending much of you life under the starry night and in deep forests, you have superior vision in dim conditions. You can see in dim light within 60 feet of you as if it were bright light. You can discern colors in dim conditions, but they are muted and not as vibrant. You gain no benefit in conditions of darkness.
Trance: Elves don’t need to sleep. Instead, they meditate deeply, remaining semiconscious, for 4 hours a day. (The Common word for such meditation is “trance.”) While meditating, you can dream after a fashion; such dreams are actually mental exercises that have become reflexive through years of practice. After resting in this way, you gain the same benefit that a human does from 8 hours of sleep.
Languages: You can speak, read, and write Common, Elvish, and one extra language of your choice. Elvish is fluid, with subtle intonations and intricate grammar. Elven literature is rich and varied, and their songs and poems are famous among other races. Many bards learn their language so they can add Elvish ballads to their repertoires.

OPTIONAL SUBRACE: Drow. You have Darkvision instead of Shadowsight. You can speak, read, and write Undercommon. At the option of the DM, you lose Magical Bloodline and Elf Weapon Training, but gain Drow Magic and Drow Weapon Training (see PHB).
 
GNOME

Ability Score Increase: Your Intelligence score increases by 2 and your Wisdom scores increases by 1.
Age: Gnomes mature at the same rate humans do, and most are expected to settle down into an adult life by around age 40. They can live 350 to almost 500 years.
Alignment: Gnomes are most often good. Those who tend toward law are sages, engineers, researchers, scholars, investigators, or inventors. Those who tend toward chaos are minstrels, tricksters, wanderers, or fanciful jewelers. Gnomes are good-hearted, and even the tricksters among them are more playful than vicious.
Size: Gnomes are between 3 and 4 feet tall and average about 40 pounds. Your size is Small. For purposes of determining how much you can carry, light, pull, or drag, your Strength is considered 4 points lower (minimum 3).
Speed: Your base walking speed is 25 feet.
Artificer’s Lore: Whenever you make an Intelligence (History) check related to magic items, alchemical objects, or technological devices, you can add twice your proficiency bonus, instead of any proficiency bonus you normally apply.
Dedicated Worker: You gain Expertise in one skill with which you are proficient. When you make a skill check with this skill, you add double your proficiency bonus instead of your normal proficiency bonus.
Gnome Cunning: You have advantage on all Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma saving throws against magic.
Natural Caster: Your heritage is immersed in the magic of enchantment and illusion. Choose one of the following cantrips to know: Friends, Minor Illusion, or Viscious Mockery. When you reach 3rd-level, choose one spell from the 1st-Level Bard spell list that is either of the Enchantment or Illusion school to know. When are reach 5th-level, choose one spell from the 2nd-Level Bard spell list that is either of the Enchantment or Illusion school to know. You regain the ability to cast these spells after a Short or Long Rest. Intelligence is your spellcasting ability for these spells.
Nimble Fingers: You gain proficiency in the Sleight of Hand skill and have advantage when using this skill.
Shadowsight: Accustomed to life underground and in dense forests, you have superior vision in dim conditions. You can see in dim light within 60 feet of you as if it were bright light. You can discern colors in dim conditions, but they are muted and not as vibrant. You gain no benefit in conditions of darkness.
Speak with Small Beasts: Through sounds and gestures, you can communicate simple ideas with Small or smaller beasts. Gnomes love animals and often keep squirrels, badgers, rabbits, moles, woodpeckers, and other creatures as beloved pets.
Tinker: You have proficiency with artisan’s tools (tinker’s tools). Using those tools, you can spend 1 hour and 10 gp worth of materials to construct a Tiny clockwork device (AC 5, 1 hp). The device ceases to function after 24 hours (unless you spend 1 hour repairing it to keep the device functioning), or when you use your action to dismantle it; at that time, you can reclaim the materials used to create it. You can have up to three such devices active at a time. When you create a device, choose one of the following options:
Clockwork Toy: This toy is a clockwork animal, monster, or person, such as a frog, mouse, bird, dragon, or soldier. When placed on the ground, the toy moves 5 feet across the ground on each of your turns in a random direction. It makes noises as appropriate to the creature it represents.
Fire Starter: The device produces a miniature flame, which you can use to light a candle, torch, or campfire. Using the device requires your action.
Music Box: When opened, this music box plays a single song at a moderate volume. The box stops playing when it reaches the song’s end or when it is closed.
Languages: You can speak, read, and write Common and Gnomish. The Gnomish language, which uses the Dwarvish script, is renowned for its technical treatises and its catalogs of knowledge about the natural world.

HALF-ELF

Ability Score Increase: Your Dexterity , Intelligence, and Wisdom scores increases by 1.
Age: Half-elves mature at the same rate humans do and reach adulthood around the age of 20. They live much longer than humans, however, often exceeding 180 years.
Alignment: Half-elves share the chaotic bent of their elven heritage. They value both personal freedom and creative expression, demonstrating neither love of leaders nor desire for followers. They chafe at rules, resent others’ demands, and sometimes prove unreliable, or at least unpredictable.
Size: Half-elves are about the same size as humans, ranging from 5 to 6 feet tall. Your size is Medium.
Speed: Your base walking speed is 30 feet.
Fey Ancestry: You have advantage on saving throws against being charmed, and magic can’t put you to sleep.
Skill Versatility: You gain proficiency in two skills of your choice.
Touch of Magic: You choose one cantrip from any spell list to know. You use the appropriate Ability Score when casting this cantrip for any attack or DC save purposes.
Uncommon Understanding: You gain proficiency in the Insight skill.
Wide Horizons: You pick up your skills in a variety of ways. When you select your Class Skills, you can choose skills not listed under your Class Features as well as from those listed. Whenever a Class or Archetype feature grants a new skill, you can elect to choose any other skill instead.
Languages: You can speak, read, and write Common and two extra languages of your choice. Half-Elves typically learn Elven, but you can choose any language.
 
HALF-ORC

Ability Score Increase: Your Strength score increases by 2, and your Constitution score increases by 1.
Age: Half-orcs mature a little faster than humans, reaching adulthood around age 14. They age noticeably faster and rarely live longer than 75 years.
Alignment: Half-orcs inherit a tendency toward chaos from their orc parents and are not strongly inclined toward good. Half-orcs raised among orcs and willing to live out their lives among them are usually evil.
Size: Half-orcs are somewhat larger and bulkier than humans, and they range from 5 to well over 6 feet tall. Your size is Medium.
Speed: Your base walking speed is 30 feet.
Broad Back: You have advantage when making Strength checks. You are considered Large for purposes of determining how much weight you can carry, lift, drag, or pull.
Darkvision: Thanks to your orc blood, you have superior vision in dark and dim conditions. You can see in dim light within 60 feet of you as if it were bright light, and in darkness as if it were dim light. You can’t discern color in darkness, only shades of gray.
Menacing: You gain proficiency in the Intimidation skill.
Natural Survivalist: You gain proficiency in the Survival skill.
Relentless Endurance: When you are reduced to 0 hit points but not killed outright, you can drop to 1 hit point instead. You can’t use this feature again until you finish a long rest.
Savage Attacks: When you score a critical hit with a melee weapon attack, you can roll one of the weapon’s damage dice one additional time and add it to the extra damage of the critical hit.
Languages: You can speak, read, and write Common and Orc. Orc is a harsh, grating language with hard consonants. It has no script of its own but is written in the Dwarvish script.
 
HALFLING

Ability Score Increase: Your Charisma score increases by 2, and your Dexterity score increases by 1.
Age: A halfling reaches adulthood at the age of 20 and generally lives into the middle of his or her second century.
Alignment: Most halflings are lawful good. As a rule, they are good-hearted and kind, hate to see others in pain, and have no tolerance for oppression. They are also very orderly and traditional, leaning heavily on the support of their community and the comfort of their old ways.
Size: Halflings average about 3 feet tall and weigh about 40 pounds. Your size is Small. For purposes of determing how much you can carry, light, pull, or drag, your Strength is considered 4 points lower (minimum 3).
Speed: Your base walking speed is 25 feet.
Brave: You have advantage on saving throws against being frightened.
Halfling Nimbleness: You can move through the space of any creature that is of a size larger than yours.
Hobbyist: You gain proficiency in one Tool or Kit of your choice.
Lucky: When you roll a 1 on the d20 for an attack roll, ability check, or saving throw, you can reroll the die and must use the new roll.
Naturally Stealthy: You gain proficiency in the Stealth skill and have advantage on Stealth checks. You can attempt to hide even when you are obscured only by a creature that is at least one size larger than you.
Stone Slinger: From a lifetime of games and fun, you are adept at throwing small, light objects quickly and with accuracy. When you make a ranged attack with a small, light object (no more than 1 lb.), you gain a +1 to the attack roll. Items include darts, daggers, and stones (not from a sling). As a bonus action, you make an additional ranged attack when you are making a ranged attack with these small items.
Stout Resilience: You have advantage on saving throws against poison, and you have resistance against poison damage.
Languages: You can speak, read, and write Common and Halfling. The Halfling language isn’t secret, but halflings are loath to share it with others. They write very little, so they don’t have a rich body of literature. Their oral tradition, however, is very strong. Almost all halflings speak Common to converse with the people in whose lands they dwell or through which they are traveling.

HUMAN

Ability Score Increase: Three different ability scores of your choice increase by 1.
Age: Humans reach adulthood in their late teens and live less than a century.
Alignment: Humans tend toward no particular alignment. The best and the worst are found among them.
Size: Humans vary widely in height and build, from barely 5 feet to well over 6 feet tall. Regardless of your position in that range, your size is Medium.
Speed: Your base walking speed is 30 feet.
Feat: You gain one feat of your choice.
Incredible Determination: You gain proficiency in saving throws for one ability score of your choice.
Skill Versatility: You gain proficiency in two skills of your choice.
Tool Proficiency: You gain proficiency in one tool or kit of your choice.
Languages: You can speak, read, and write Common and one extra language of your choice. Humans typically learn the languages of other peoples they deal with, including obscure dialects. They are fond of sprinkling their speech with words borrowed from other tongues: Orc curses, Elvish musical expressions, Dwarvish military phrases, and so on.

TIEFLING

Ability Score Increase: Your Charisma score increases by 2, and your Constitution score increases by 1.
Age: Tieflings mature at the same rate as humans but live a few years longer.
Alignment: Tieflings might not have an innate tendency toward evil, but many of them end up there. Evil or not, an independent nature inclines many tieflings toward a chaotic alignment.
Size: Tieflings are about the same size and build as humans. Your size is Medium.
Speed: Your base walking speed is 30 feet.
Dark Heritage: Your infernal heritage confers partial resistance to magic effects. You choose one ability from Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma. You have advantage when making saving throws against magical spells and effects for the chosen ability.
Darkvision: Thanks to your infernal heritage, you have superior vision in dark and dim conditions. You can see in dim light within 60 feet of you as if it were bright light, and in darkness as if it were dim light. You can’t discern color in darkness, only shades of gray.
Hellish Resistance: You have advantage on saving throws against fire and cold damage. You have resistance to fire damage.
Infernal Legacy: You know the thaumaturgy cantrip. When you reach 3rd level, you can cast the hellish rebuke spell as a 2nd-level spell once with this trait and regain the ability to do so when you finish a long rest. When you reach 5th level, you can cast the darkness spell once with this trait and regain the ability to do so when you finish a long rest. Charisma is your spellcasting ability for these spells.
Lore Master: You gain proficiency in the Arcana skill.
Languages: You can speak, read, and write Common and Infernal.

 

[clearstream]

My group has been playing 5E for a while now, and we are getting ready to discuss anything we want to house-rule. Before we do, I would like your opinions on a few things.

I'll begin with the races. Now, I realize this is totally subjective and this is only my particular take on it. The table below shows my comparisons.

View attachment 103834

For example, in comparing Dwarves to the Human Variant:

• Con +2 equivalent to Human Variant +1 to two abilities; i.e. both are +2 total.
• Dwarven Combat Training and Str/Wis bonus equivalent to Weapon Master Feat, which the Human Variant could take.
• Dwarven Tool Proficiency is roughly equivalent to the Extra Skill of the Human Variant.

Now, Dwarves are a bit slower in Speed, but make up for that slightly with not being penalized for wearing heavy armors. The advantage is a bit towards the Human Variant, but not overwhelmingly so IMO.

Now, the Human Variant gets choice in choosing where the bonuses go, what Feat and Skill to learn, etc. That is a big deal, but is it really worth everything the Dwarves get beyond the Human Variant? (Notice everything in the blue and red box under the Dwarf column.) I don't think so, and the advantage goes to the Dwarf for getting abilities over the Human Variant.

Elves are just as bad in gaining several advantages over the Human Variant, and Half-Elves aren't far behind being superior to the Human Variant. Gnomes, Halflings, and Half-Orcs have a slight edge on abilities over the Human Variant, but here having the choice with the Human Variant evens things out close enough. Dragonborn and Tieflings are pretty even with the Human Variant IMO.

So, my question to you all is this: What to do about the balance of abilities for Dwarves, Elves, and Half-Elves compared to the other races? Should we remove some of those races abilities, or offer improvements/additions to the races that seem a bit weaker in abilities? For instance, I was thinking about granting Halflings Stealth as a racial skill to compliment their Naturally Stealthy abilitiy.

I am also considering removing subrace abilities entirely for PCs or combining them somehow into the main race.

I realize many of you won't agree with my take on this, and like I began with, it is subjective and my point of view. I do not want debates about which power is equal to what, etc., so please don't post along those lines. I am looking for ways to balance things out as I see it. If you feel everything is fine as is, I am happy for you.

I feel like your analysis is fair. I dislike Human Variant as written because in our group its main use seems to be to enable mechanical optimisation, producing balance distortions in tier 1. Instead I'm trialling adding this feature to standard human - Schooled - You gain one feat. The feat can be Actor, Athlete, Linguist, Prodigy or Tavern Brawler.

I wouldn't do anything for gnomes as I'm happy if they're seldom played, but I agree that Halflings could gain Stealth without feeling IMBA.

 

[WhosDaDungeonMaster]

Low-Powered Versions

Here is a summary of the low-powered versions. There are no longer any subraces as far as abilities/mechanics are concerned.

Dragonborn:
Wis +2, Str +1
Darkvision gained

Dwarf:
Con +2, Str +1
Darkvision replaced by Shadowsight (changes dim light to bright light, but doesn't help in darkness at all)
Removed all subrace abilities

Elf:
Dex +2, Int +1
Darkvision replaced by Shadowsight
Removed Trance and all subrace abilities

Gnome:
Int +2, Wis +1
Darkvision replaced by Shadowsight
Folded subrace abilities into main race
Added encumbrance restriction (Strength score is 4 lower to determine carry, lift, push, pull, drag amounts)

Half-Elf:
Dex +1, Int +1, ASI +1 one other ability score of choice
Darkvision replaced by Shadowsight

Half-Orc:
No changes

Halfling:
Chr +2, Dex +1
Folded subrace abilities into main race
Added encumbrance restriction (Strength score is 4 lower to determine carry, lift, push, pull, drag amounts)

Human (Variant):
ASI +2 to one ability, ASI +1 to a different ability

Tiefling:
Chr +2, Con +1
New ability: Dark Heritage (gain advantage to save proficiency for Int, Wis, OR Chr versus magic only)

I think that is everything. Just to be clear, these are the changes from the RAW. So, for example, the Human Variant still gets a feat, skill, and language; I am simply bumping one of the ASI from +1 to +2.

Overall, as much as I like some of the new concepts in the high-power versions posted earlier, I think we will adapt these versions if the players agree. I'll find out tomorrow!

 

[doctorbadwolf]

It’s not bad as a first draft.

IMO, the Gnome is pretty abysmal. Making Small more punitive is pointless, locking them in to +Wisdom seems to have no relationship to their lore, and it’s just far too many traits. I’d never play it, regardless of relative power level.

Elves are vastly too railroaded. I have absolutely no interest whatsoever in High Elves, and you’ve basically just made all elves into that. No thanks. I don’t look to the elf to play wizards, I look there to play rogues, Rangers, Druids, and the occasional dex paladin.

Dragonborn are the only race that needs a boost, but I don’t think giving them an AC calculation fits their lore thus far. They wear armor.

Dwarves are more complicated and I think it brings them down more than aides them.

Tieflings don’t need that much of a boost to be in line with the other presented options.

Half-orcs broad back is broken. Advantage on Strength Checks is too strong by far.

The Shadowsight change is pointless as a change to individual races.

 

[5ekyu]

The quest for on-paper balance inevitably leads to fewer, more quantifiable and less flavorful options. You got there in one. Efficient.

No woodelves - gone from lore - nah.

You mentioned how many players enjoyed sub-rssces.., did yours? Will this make them have more fun?

Size and encumbrance penalties for small? Man, that's a kick in the wee-willies. Guess they just gotta give up on heavy fighting pretty much. Heck, 8 str gets you only 60lbs before overloaded now so even common adventure gear is likely out of the question.

With outside at night on most moonlit nights is darkness and effectively blinded, looks like most races stay indoors at night and mostly nobody takes long trips. Cool.

 

[WhosDaDungeonMaster]

Thanks for the feedback! I'll print these out and bring up the points with my players.

It’s not bad as a first draft.

Thanks. Obviously I have put a lot of time and thought into it.

IMO, the Gnome is pretty abysmal. Making Small more punitive is pointless, locking them in to +Wisdom seems to have no relationship to their lore, and it’s just far too many traits. I’d never play it, regardless of relative power level.

Size and encumbrance penalties for small? Man, that's a kick in the wee-willies. Guess they just gotta give up on heavy fighting pretty much. Heck, 8 str gets you only 60lbs before overloaded now so even common adventure gear is likely out of the question./

While I understand your concerns about the encumbrace penalty to Gnome and Halfling races, it simply should have been there from the start IMO. Both races weigh, on average 40 lbs according to RAW. It is ludicous to think of a 40 lb character with even a Str 10 carrying around 150 lbs or more (depending on variant use or not) without penalty. That would be like a 200-lb human carrying 500 lbs! I know this is a fantasy game, but that is completely unrealistic without magic. Likewise, that same Small character can jump just as far as a Medium one with the same Strength score... again, not quite right IMO.

I thought of penalizing Strength (I was thinking of -4 LOL), but that would only decrease the Strength-based classes attraction due to loss of attack and damage bonus. Another option was to half encumbrace for Small races and then quarter it for Tiny. I decided on the present system as that would be more realistic without being completely off-balance.

Now, I already planned on having "Small-size" heavier items, such as Heavy Armors, etc. with lighter weight. A Small-sized Breastplate would not weigh the same as a Medium one. I understand 5E wants simplicity, but it can go too far.

Elves are vastly too railroaded. I have absolutely no interest whatsoever in High Elves, and you’ve basically just made all elves into that. No thanks. I don’t look to the elf to play wizards, I look there to play rogues, Rangers, Druids, and the occasional dex paladin.

No woodelves - gone from lore - nah.

So, you are only interested in Wood-elf Druids or Drow Paladins? You can still play any class with an Int-only ASI. Also, the Dex +2 is still more than viable for Rogue, Rangers, and other classes.
The subraces still exist for flavor, just as different subraces of Humans exist, but there is not in-game racial ability difference.

Dragonborn are the only race that needs a boost, but I don’t think giving them an AC calculation fits their lore thus far. They wear armor.

Dragonborn, coming from dragons, could naturally have a "hide-based" AC higher than 10. Many posts have suggested it as an option. Also, the DR 1 is a nice boost, as well as granting Darkvision.

Half-orcs broad back is broken. Advantage on Strength Checks is too strong by far.

I agree the Broad Back for Half-Orcs could be OP. If you have a suggestion, I would love to hear it.

The Shadowsight change is pointless as a change to individual races.

With outside at night on most moonlit nights is darkness and effectively blinded, looks like most races stay indoors at night and mostly nobody takes long trips. Cool.

Shadowsight isn't pointless as I see it. If you could expand on your point please do and let me know why you think it is. Shadowsight is not replacing Darkvision for many "commonly underground" monsters. And what can I say, I like the idea of players resting more in towns than in the wild at night.

You mentioned how many players enjoyed sub-rssces.., did yours? Will this make them have more fun?

There's been some talk about it. Personally, I think too much of sub-races is fluff and fine for role-playing, but not needed for game mechanics generally. We will definitely discuss it in our group later today. If the consensus is to keep subraces, I just have to find a way to balance the additional abilities out with other races.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Thanks for the feedback! I'll print these out and bring up the points with my players.
Thanks. Obviously I have put a lot of time and thought into it.

always happy to help.

While I understand your concerns about the encumbrace penalty to Gnome and Halfling races, it simply should have been there from the start IMO. Both races weigh, on average 40 lbs according to RAW. It is ludicous to think of a 40 lb character with even a Str 10 carrying around 150 lbs or more (depending on variant use or not) without penalty. That would be like a 200-lb human carrying 500 lbs! I know this is a fantasy game, but that is completely unrealistic without magic. Likewise, that same Small character can jump just as far as a Medium one with the same Strength score... again, not quite right IMO.

I thought of penalizing Strength (I was thinking of -4 LOL), but that would only decrease the Strength-based classes attraction due to loss of attack and damage bonus. Another option was to half encumbrace for Small races and then quarter it for Tiny. I decided on the present system as that would be more realistic without being completely off-balance.

Now, I already planned on having "Small-size" heavier items, such as Heavy Armors, etc. with lighter weight. A Small-sized Breastplate would not weigh the same as a Medium one. I understand 5E wants simplicity, but it can go too far.

Well, first, the RAW weight of those two races is ludicrous. They aren’t toddlers. There are real life adult humans of those heights, and they weight more than that. Gnomes can be as tall as 4 feet. A four foot tall adult isn’t going to wiegh 50 lbs.

Beyond that, 5e is right about simplicity, in this case. Why are you adding this much complexity for something that is basically cosmetic, turning it into a punitive feature? Your gnomes are now simply weaker than the other races, mechanically, on top of being horrifically complicated for no particular gain.

So, you are only interested in Wood-elf Druids or Drow Paladins? You can still play any class with an Int-only ASI. Also, the Dex +2 is still more than viable for Rogue, Rangers, and other classes.
The subraces still exist for flavor, just as different subraces of Humans exist, but there is not in-game racial ability difference.

I don’t care about drow Paladins at all. I’ve played Wood Elf Paladins, but the only drow I’ve played have been rogues and 1 Hexblade in 4e.

The point isn’t the +1 int. It’s that you made the race a wizard. A wood elf should not have wizard spells, in fiction.
Wood elves and high elves have been different enough to warrant different stats since Tolkien! It’s not just fluff.

Dragonborn, coming from dragons, could naturally have a "hide-based" AC higher than 10. Many posts have suggested it as an option. Also, the DR 1 is a nice boost, as well as granting Darkvision.

As with the gnome changes, the criticism is not just about whether it makes sense. It isn’t a mechanically good decision. A +1 to AC, or “your AC calculation uses Con rather than Dex” or something would be fine, but you’ve instead changed the fiction to one where Dragonborn don’t tend to wear armor. Why?

I agree the Broad Back for Half-Orcs could be OP. If you have a suggestion, I would love to hear it.

Just drop the Advantage on Strength checks. You’ve already done the job with the other part of the feature. IMO the whole feature is unecessary and steps on the toes of the big guy races, which half orcs have never been, but it’s not a big deal.

Shadowsight isn't pointless as I see it. If you could expand on your point please do and let me know why you think it is. Shadowsight is not replacing Darkvision for many "commonly underground" monsters. And what can I say, I like the idea of players resting more in towns than in the wild at night.

do you rule a clear starry or moonlit night as dim light rather than darkness? If not, Elves are blind at night. That borks the fiction. Elves should be camping under the stars...it’s...like their whole thing, man.

There's been some talk about it. Personally, I think too much of sub-races is fluff and fine for role-playing, but not needed for game mechanics generally. We will definitely discuss it in our group later today. If the consensus is to keep subraces, I just have to find a way to balance the additional abilities out with other races.

Other than maybe the Dwarf and Halflings, none of the subraces are just fluff. For one thing, they allow the races to fill more roles without adding even more complexity to the game. For another, stuff like wood elves and high elves are very different. Wood elves don’t do wizard magic, unless they are an actual wizard, and they do have an affinity for stealth and fleet movement that high elves lack. Even moreso, the three gnomes. I’m fine with all gnomes being able to talk to animals, but all gnomes shouldn’t be tinkerers, Svirfneblin can see in the dark, and rock gnomes are **in fiction** tougher but less nimble than Forest gnomes and deep gnomes.

The Halflings as well, are a great example of why subraces are a very good mechanic. They don’t represent a fictional different kind of Halflings (other than the ghostwise) as much as different affinities Halflings can have. There are naturally charismatic Halflings that are good at hiding, and there are tougher, more stout Halflings. People want different things who play each subrace, and the subrace makes it easier for them to get the character they want.

 

[TaranTheWanderer]

Here is a summary of the low-powered versions. There are no longer any subraces as far as abilities/mechanics are concerned.

Dragonborn:
Wis +2, Str +1
Darkvision gained

Dwarf:
Con +2, Str +1
Darkvision replaced by Shadowsight (changes dim light to bright light, but doesn't help in darkness at all)
Removed all subrace abilities

Elf:
Dex +2, Int +1
Darkvision replaced by Shadowsight
Removed Trance and all subrace abilities

Gnome:
Int +2, Wis +1
Darkvision replaced by Shadowsight
Folded subrace abilities into main race
Added encumbrance restriction (Strength score is 4 lower to determine carry, lift, push, pull, drag amounts)

Half-Elf:
Dex +1, Int +1, ASI +1 one other ability score of choice
Darkvision replaced by Shadowsight

Half-Orc:
No changes

Halfling:
Chr +2, Dex +1
Folded subrace abilities into main race
Added encumbrance restriction (Strength score is 4 lower to determine carry, lift, push, pull, drag amounts)

Human (Variant):
ASI +2 to one ability, ASI +1 to a different ability

Tiefling:
Chr +2, Con +1
New ability: Dark Heritage (gain advantage to save proficiency for Int, Wis, OR Chr versus magic only)

I think that is everything. Just to be clear, these are the changes from the RAW. So, for example, the Human Variant still gets a feat, skill, and language; I am simply bumping one of the ASI from +1 to +2.

Overall, as much as I like some of the new concepts in the high-power versions posted earlier, I think we will adapt these versions if the players agree. I'll find out tomorrow!

If you are getting rid of sub-races, why not give each race a main stat boost (like dex for elves and halflings,) and a +1 to any other stat. That way, you have the flavour of the elven dex but could go with a ranger (wood elf) by putting a +1 to wisdom or more wizardy +1 to INT. Do that for every race. It'll give players much more choice. It will allow for clerics in various races too. Maybe that second +1 has more to do with their upbringing than their actual race or whatever.

Shadowsight: I like it. But I liked low-light vision in 3e. But why limit it to 60 feet? the easiest thing is to let them see in dim light as if it's regular light. Mechanically speaking, they get no disadvantage on perception checks in dim light. That's super easy to keep track of.

Little races and carrying capacity. I like it. I always thought it was stupid that little races could carry as much as the bigger races. It's better than giving them a penalty to strength or capping their strength. That said, the Little races tend to wear little versions of everything which would make those items lighter. I might house rule that worn gear(like clothes and armour) does not contribute to encumbrance. Otherwise you'll have to house rule the weight of all the equipment of small people because you shouldn't limit a race from wearing a small suit of full plate.

What I did with halfling PCs is just used flaws. "you can't wield that sword, you're too small. have an inspiration."

 

[5ekyu]

[MENTION=6976296]James Grover[/MENTION]

"While I understand your concerns about the encumbrace penalty to Gnome and Halfling races, it simply should have been there from the start IMO. Both races weigh, on average 40 lbs according to RAW. It is ludicous to think of a 40 lb character with even a Str 10 carrying around 150 lbs or more (depending on variant use or not) without penalty. That would be like a 200-lb human carrying 500 lbs! I know this is a fantasy game, but that is completely unrealistic without magic. Likewise, that same Small character can jump just as far as a Medium one with the same Strength score... again, not quite right IMO."

Actually you seem to have a totally different thought about what strength (the score) is.
In 5e strength (the score) is not a multiplier based on your weight, but an objective measure of your character's muscle power - not by any means necessarily tied to muscle mass or the percentage of muscle to non-muscle overall weight. This is a magical world, not a reality one - so it is perfectly within the realm of fantasy to have gnomes and halflings etc. be "by dint of their origins and the will of the gods which forged them, these races are smaller but sturdy and stronger than they look." Even in our own world, animal experts and even pop-tv types will point out that while primates like chimps are smaller than us, their ratio of muscle to total weight is higher - so applying our "human-size" expectations is going to turn out badly - and last i checked chimps were not magical races.

*if* one makes it so that in their world it makes more sense for the changes you see - Is it more "making sense" then that the small race can carry only a fraction of the usual amount but can still hit as hard with the same strength-based axe? Or have the same chance at forcing a door as a same strength human? Succeed at a grapple check vs a larger guy?

But hey, lets not let flavor dull that razor of balance cutting away that which cant be tabulated.

For my games, if you want to play a weak halfling to reflect your size, i just say "then choose a low strength" and we all treat strength score as an objective score, not a "fluid maybe means this but maybe means that" thing.

"Now, I already planned on having "Small-size" heavier items, such as Heavy Armors, etc. with lighter weight. A Small-sized Breastplate would not weigh the same as a Medium one. I understand 5E wants simplicity, but it can go too far."

And here we go... one general hallmark of a "less than wonderful house rule to me is when you have to immediately change other things to reverse some of the complications." if you have to go "three steps left and two steps forward and one step back and four steps right" to get to "a step ahead and a step right" you are probably on the wrong path.

What about food? What about drink?
A week's worth of rations weighs 14lbs and a full waterskin weighs 5 lbs so my strength 8 gnome has lost about half his carry capacity right there. You gonna adjust weights for those too?

there is a reason that the *small and medium" size categories in 5e were chosen to treat carry and equipment measures for individual items and character capacity the same.

But, if you are dead set and determined, instead of flat scores, consider using the variant of the goliath and firbolg features which simp,y says "treat this creature as tiny for carrying" as that starts your full redux using already existing mechanics for size differences instead of re-inventing the wheel.

me? i just treat small as not just being "size" and mass.

"So, you are only interested in Wood-elf Druids or Drow Paladins? You can still play any class with an Int-only ASI. Also, the Dex +2 is still more than viable for Rogue, Rangers, and other classes. "

I have no idea where you got this from. I am interested in wood-elves whose scores and strengths reflect a long time living in the woods - not towers of magic and so forth. I like having a race defined as coming from lifetime in the woods getting a boost to the ability that reflects aptitude with tasks like interacting with and influencing or controlling animals, finding and foraging for food and water in the wild, follow tracks, hunt wild game, guide your group through frozen wastelands, identify signs that owlbears live nearby, predict the weather, or avoid quicksand and other natural hazards.

"Shadowsight isn't pointless as I see it. If you could expand on your point please do and let me know why you think it is. Shadowsight is not replacing Darkvision for many "commonly underground" monsters. And what can I say, I like the idea of players resting more in towns than in the wild at night."

outside at night at any light your shadowsight means blinded. 5e rules establish that only exceptionally bright full moons (not just regular full moon) means darkness not dim light.

Course, that might be a push me - pull you double step rule change for your game too.

As for de facto driving out the long overland quests - so you are again installing what amounts to a very civilized setting with indoors stops to counter your rules changes a bit - ok, sure.

"There's been some talk about it. Personally, I think too much of sub-races is fluff and fine for role-playing, but not needed for game mechanics generally. We will definitely discuss it in our group later today. If the consensus is to keep subraces, I just have to find a way to balance the additional abilities out with other races."

I ask what do your players think after you said many players liked sub-races. You respond with vague references to there having been talks and then reiterate your views - no mention of theirs.

That is quite illustrative that when directly asked what your players likes were on a specific subject you did not think it important to say what theirs were and reiterate your own views?

As for the follow-up discussion with the damaclesean "or find a way to balance" add-on consequence, sounds it could be seen as a "do you want to accept the proposal i like or do you want me to scrap that and instead do something else to get to what i want?"

the best suggestion i can give you is to spend much more effort and time in your twixt-campaign redux asking your players what they want and tweaking the setting and campaign and so on to better fit their (and your) actual in-play likes rather than the quest for the "regardless of " (setting, class etc) on-paper ideal of balance. the prey you are stalking does not taste as good as the ones you are dismissing and is a lot less filling.

 

[Mistwell]

Except that I've never heard of anyone taking a regular human when variant human was offered. I'm sure it has happened (especially if they rolled for abilities and end up with 6 odd ones) but it seems to show that feats, especially to start with, are highly valued.

Yeah I did it once, and it was for that very reason. Rolled abilities, all 6 ended up odd, and non-variant human made the most sense.