'Balancing' rolled characters
- Thread starter Malin Genie
- Start date
Wombat
First Post
I am one of the folks who has gotten tired of the concept of "game balance". Maybe this comes from playing Ars Magica for so many years, but the more I think about it, the more I like random elements in character creation.
I don't want everything to go back to the Pure Chaos of original D&D (roll 3d6 in order, play your character based on that), but I think games have gone too far in the White Wolf direction (carefully give everyone the same number of points and let them buy characters that are "balanced" against each other).
A bit of chaos is a glorious thing -- gives the character something to work with and/or against and underlines the all-important line from The Princess Bride:
"Whoever said life is fair?"
I don't want everything to go back to the Pure Chaos of original D&D (roll 3d6 in order, play your character based on that), but I think games have gone too far in the White Wolf direction (carefully give everyone the same number of points and let them buy characters that are "balanced" against each other).
A bit of chaos is a glorious thing -- gives the character something to work with and/or against and underlines the all-important line from The Princess Bride:
"Whoever said life is fair?"
Dimwhit
Explorer
Amen Brother! (or sister)
That's part of what annoys me with 3.5. The whole purpose is to try to put everything into total balance. What's the fun in that? Let's face it, some people/classes SHOULD be more powerful than others. If players can't deal with it and roleplay...well, I don't know how to finish that.
But I agree with you, Wombat. Let chaos reign. If one fighter is more powerful than the other, then I guess he gets frontline duty all the time.
reapersaurus
Explorer
Hear, hear.Wombat said:
I'd prefer it if the "game balance" issues could be held for when they're actually meaningful - not when it's just a 15 or so point discrepency in character creation.
(the 23 pointer should be re-rolled, since it's below the default spread)
Cullyn
First Post
I have to agree with Wombat here. I've run several games in the past and have always used a slightly modified method of rolling characters so that you have that chaotic edge while still providing your players with charcters that feel powerful. After all, they are heroes. The method I use will usually give them one or two reasonably high stats, around 16 or so, and the rest ranging from average to middling.
For the curious, I generally use the following:
Roll 4d6 six times, dropping the low number each time.
If you like the numbers rolled, place according to preference.
If you don't like the numbers, you lose all the rolls and roll 4d6 six more times.
Rinse and repeat.
Admittedly, it's not anywhere near an "accepted" method, but it does seem to add a lot of excitement even to character creation when someone rolls a 17 for the first throw and then a 9 for the second. I've seen some of my players agonize (in a fun way) over the decision to keep a set of rolls or not.
Using this method, I don't need to worry about "balancing" the characters so much as the stats they end up with are mostly their decision and they are generally delighted that they have the ability to create their characters in this method. As far as balancing the characters with the entire game, it's easy to just bump up a few hit points or something on the beasties they face, though generally that doesn't need to be done.
Just my two cents from a recent lurker.
For the curious, I generally use the following:
Roll 4d6 six times, dropping the low number each time.
If you like the numbers rolled, place according to preference.
If you don't like the numbers, you lose all the rolls and roll 4d6 six more times.
Rinse and repeat.
Admittedly, it's not anywhere near an "accepted" method, but it does seem to add a lot of excitement even to character creation when someone rolls a 17 for the first throw and then a 9 for the second. I've seen some of my players agonize (in a fun way) over the decision to keep a set of rolls or not.
Using this method, I don't need to worry about "balancing" the characters so much as the stats they end up with are mostly their decision and they are generally delighted that they have the ability to create their characters in this method. As far as balancing the characters with the entire game, it's easy to just bump up a few hit points or something on the beasties they face, though generally that doesn't need to be done.
Just my two cents from a recent lurker.
Cedric
First Post
Balance is my new favorite word to hate in relation to RPG's. RPG's have existed for over 30 years in their current form without balance.
Original D&D, 1st edition, 2nd edition...etc...none of these had balance.
Do you think the Fellowship of the Ring was balanced? Two immortals, a stout Dwarf, the future king of an elite group of men who shares the blood of the heroes of old, a noble warrior, renowned for his prowess...and 4 hobbits that had never seen a weapon.
Balance is not the key to having fun in an RPG. Balance is not the point of the rules.
The point of the rules is to provide a bit of structure for the game. The point of the game is to exercise your imagination, have fun and create a new world a few hours at a time.
/rant off
On topic? I'll stick with good old dice rolling, thanks. I like the chance and the wonder of what might be created by the next few tosses of the dice...rather than trying to calculate what cookie-cutter character I might stamp out next.
Cedric
Original D&D, 1st edition, 2nd edition...etc...none of these had balance.
Do you think the Fellowship of the Ring was balanced? Two immortals, a stout Dwarf, the future king of an elite group of men who shares the blood of the heroes of old, a noble warrior, renowned for his prowess...and 4 hobbits that had never seen a weapon.
Balance is not the key to having fun in an RPG. Balance is not the point of the rules.
The point of the rules is to provide a bit of structure for the game. The point of the game is to exercise your imagination, have fun and create a new world a few hours at a time.
/rant off
On topic? I'll stick with good old dice rolling, thanks. I like the chance and the wonder of what might be created by the next few tosses of the dice...rather than trying to calculate what cookie-cutter character I might stamp out next.
Cedric
jester47
First Post
I agree with the don't worry about it school. I use the standard rolling method from the PH with a slightly higher mulligan range of +2. Once done the DM reviews the character and declares if it is viable or not. (You just rolled an Orc Wizard with an Int of 3 and 18s in everything else, you need to reroll.)
1) Declare Race
2) Declare Class
3) Declare the order of your stats
4) Roll in order
5) DM review of stats for character viability.
Aaron.
1) Declare Race
2) Declare Class
3) Declare the order of your stats
4) Roll in order
5) DM review of stats for character viability.
Aaron.
CrusadeDave
First Post
Altering Die Rolls
When I am starting up a new group of characters, I usually have them roll 4d6, 7 times, take the best six, and assign each number to a stat and have them choose a race with ability mods and class.
First, I calculate the point buy value of each character's stats. I then take the lowest stat of the lowest point buy character and raise it, until it is no longer the lowest point buy character. If two stats are tied, I take the primary stat used for bonus spells for the class, else I start with Strength and move down on the character sheet. If the character was really rolled low, this sometimes gives the punted stat a really good boost, sometimes, somewhat higher than 18. Personally, I think this is okay for the worst rolled character in the party in a non-primary stat, otherwise why would you assign your lowest stat there?
Then, I take the highest point buy character and lower the highest stat by 1. If two stats are tied, I take the primary stat used for bonus spells for the class, else I start with Strength and move down on the character sheet. This usually makes the "superman roll" less optimized in his primary class ability, but still have the best all around stats.
I then take the new lowest point buy character, and raise the highest stat by 1 until it the character is no longer the lowest point buy character, but not higher than 18. If the highest stat is 18, I raise the second highest stat instead.
Next, I take the highest point buy character, which may be the same as before, but may not be, and lower the highest stat by 1. If two stats are tied, I take the primary stat used for bonus spells for the class, else I start with Strength and move down on the character sheet.
Then, I then take the new lowest point buy character, and raise their lowest stat by 1 until they are no longer the lowest point buy character.
Finally, I take the new highest point buy character, and lower the lowest stat by 1.
When I do this with players I usually allow them to roll their dice, and then I write down my dice alteration steps in envelopes, and open them 1 step at a time, so that it is known that I'm not picking on anyone specifically.
For example, Initial Dice rolls for a sample party of four before alteration give:
Human Cleric: S:16, D:13, C:13, I:12, W:17, Ch:16. Point Buy:47.
Halfling Rogue: S:9, D:20, C:12, I:13, W:11, Ch:7. Point Buy: 36.
Dwarven Fighter: S:15, D:13, C:17, I:11, W:11. Ch:7. Point Buy: 31.
Human Wizard: S:8, Dex:13, C:14, Int:16, W:10, Cha:7. Point Buy 22.
After alteration they become:
Human Cleric: S:16, D:13, C:13, I:11, W:15, Ch:16. Point Buy:41.
Halfling Rogue: S:9, D:20, C:12, I:13, W:11, Ch:7. Point Buy: 36.
Dwarven Fighter: S:15, D:13, C:18, I:11, W:11. Ch:7. Point Buy: 34.
Human Wizard: S:16, D:13, C:14, I:16, W:10, Ch:10. Point Buy 35.
What I like about this method, is often the lowest point buy character has the highest single stat of the group, and the highest point buy character has the lowest high stat of the group.
When I am starting up a new group of characters, I usually have them roll 4d6, 7 times, take the best six, and assign each number to a stat and have them choose a race with ability mods and class.
First, I calculate the point buy value of each character's stats. I then take the lowest stat of the lowest point buy character and raise it, until it is no longer the lowest point buy character. If two stats are tied, I take the primary stat used for bonus spells for the class, else I start with Strength and move down on the character sheet. If the character was really rolled low, this sometimes gives the punted stat a really good boost, sometimes, somewhat higher than 18. Personally, I think this is okay for the worst rolled character in the party in a non-primary stat, otherwise why would you assign your lowest stat there?
Then, I take the highest point buy character and lower the highest stat by 1. If two stats are tied, I take the primary stat used for bonus spells for the class, else I start with Strength and move down on the character sheet. This usually makes the "superman roll" less optimized in his primary class ability, but still have the best all around stats.
I then take the new lowest point buy character, and raise the highest stat by 1 until it the character is no longer the lowest point buy character, but not higher than 18. If the highest stat is 18, I raise the second highest stat instead.
Next, I take the highest point buy character, which may be the same as before, but may not be, and lower the highest stat by 1. If two stats are tied, I take the primary stat used for bonus spells for the class, else I start with Strength and move down on the character sheet.
Then, I then take the new lowest point buy character, and raise their lowest stat by 1 until they are no longer the lowest point buy character.
Finally, I take the new highest point buy character, and lower the lowest stat by 1.
When I do this with players I usually allow them to roll their dice, and then I write down my dice alteration steps in envelopes, and open them 1 step at a time, so that it is known that I'm not picking on anyone specifically.
For example, Initial Dice rolls for a sample party of four before alteration give:
Human Cleric: S:16, D:13, C:13, I:12, W:17, Ch:16. Point Buy:47.
Halfling Rogue: S:9, D:20, C:12, I:13, W:11, Ch:7. Point Buy: 36.
Dwarven Fighter: S:15, D:13, C:17, I:11, W:11. Ch:7. Point Buy: 31.
Human Wizard: S:8, Dex:13, C:14, Int:16, W:10, Cha:7. Point Buy 22.
After alteration they become:
Human Cleric: S:16, D:13, C:13, I:11, W:15, Ch:16. Point Buy:41.
Halfling Rogue: S:9, D:20, C:12, I:13, W:11, Ch:7. Point Buy: 36.
Dwarven Fighter: S:15, D:13, C:18, I:11, W:11. Ch:7. Point Buy: 34.
Human Wizard: S:16, D:13, C:14, I:16, W:10, Ch:10. Point Buy 35.
What I like about this method, is often the lowest point buy character has the highest single stat of the group, and the highest point buy character has the lowest high stat of the group.
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