Balor Origin

[Ankh-Morpork Guard]

Yes, this is yet another thread on the origins of names in D&D. Specifically, the Balor.

Now, for a long time I'd accepted the general opinion that the name Balor was just a slight change from Balrog from LotR. But I've been reading a lot on Celtic myth lately, and have found that the leader of a large group of evil creatures in the myths happens to be called Balor.

I'd never seen this mentioned before in the many threads on name origins that have come up, so I decided to mention it. Any idea if this is just coincidence? Is Balor just a change from Balrog(though Tolkien may very well have named them Balrogs BECAUSE of Balor, but that's just more confusing)?

 

[diaglo]

somewhere in the books and in my shotty memory are the actual names for all of the Type demons...

i just can't remember where.


the Balrog, the hobbit, and the Ent were creatures of OD&D.

Balor is the " true name" of just one of the Type Demons.

 

[reanjr]

Yes, this is yet another thread on the origins of names in D&D. Specifically, the Balor.

Now, for a long time I'd accepted the general opinion that the name Balor was just a slight change from Balrog from LotR. But I've been reading a lot on Celtic myth lately, and have found that the leader of a large group of evil creatures in the myths happens to be called Balor.

I'd never seen this mentioned before in the many threads on name origins that have come up, so I decided to mention it. Any idea if this is just coincidence? Is Balor just a change from Balrog(though Tolkien may very well have named them Balrogs BECAUSE of Balor, but that's just more confusing)?

I have a strong feeling that someone at TSR looked at one of Tolkien's etymology books only to find that the etymology of the Balrog is Balor and used that. I could be wrong, though. Gygax and Co. had a wide array of mythological knowledge and very well may have found the term Balor in Celtic myth. I highly doubt it was coincidence, though. There are extraordinarily few creatures from AD&D 1st ed. and earlier that aren't based on a mythology of some kind.

 

[Gez]

The D&D Balor is indeed much closer to Tolkien's Balrog than to the god-king of the Fomorian, Balor of the Evil-Eye (in D&D, he could be likened, actually, to... Gruumsh, one-eyed god of the orcs, whose weapon of choice is the spear -- Balor was supposed to have a magical spear, IIRC).

PS: By the way, this parallel between Gruumsh and Balor was maybe intended to legitimize the parallels between elves and the Tuatha de Danan. And I'm not saying it's a good thing.

 

[Ankh-Morpork Guard]

The D&D Balor is indeed much closer to Tolkien's Balrog than to the god-king of the Fomorian, Balor of the Evil-Eye (in D&D, he could be likened, actually, to... Gruumsh, one-eyed god of the orcs, whose weapon of choice is the spear -- Balor was supposed to have a magical spear, IIRC).

Good point.

I was pretty much sure that the concept of the D&D Balor was closer to the Balrog(especially since, as Diaglo said, Balors were once called Balrogs). I was more curious on the name itself, as I'd not seen that reference anywhere before. Gygax and Co. did borrow a lot from mythology, so I'm starting to assume its a mix of that and taking from Tolkien's Balrog.

 

[BOZ]

somewhere in the books and in my shotty memory are the actual names for all of the Type demons...

i remember going through the index at the back of the MM2 and writing all of these down some time ago...

i'm sure i still have that list. somewhere...

 

[diaglo]

Balors were once called Balrogs).

Balor... singular... there was only 1.

Balrog.... singular ... again there was only 1.

edit: Balor is its name... like Jan Michael Vincent

 

[Ankh-Morpork Guard]

Balor... singular... there was only 1.

Balrog.... singular ... again there was only 1.

Balor...depends on the edition.

Balrog. Could have sworn there were more than one in Tolkien's world...

 

[diaglo]

Balor...depends on the edition.

true. darn 2edADnD hacks and newer...

Balrog. Could have sworn there were more than one in Tolkien's world...

in OD&D there was only 1.

 

[BOZ]

I know I’ll never find those notes anytime soon, but that does remind me of this thread: http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=30990

The document I posted therein allowed me to rather quickly come up with this list:
Aishapra (Type V Demon)
Alzoll (Type VI Demon)
Balor (Type VI)
Bilwhr (Type IV)
Errtu (Type VI)
Glabrezu (Type III)
Hezrou (Type II)
Johud (Type IV)
Kevokulli (Type V)
Marilith (Type V)
Nalfeshnee (Type IV)
Ndulu (Type VI)
Rehnaremme (Type V)
Ter-soth (Type VI)
Vrock (Type I)
Wendonai (Type VI)

(of course, little did I realize, I had already made a similar list in the linked-to thread)

Obviously, some of those names stuck and became the “generic” name for the type when the “Type I,” “Type II,” “Type III,” etc, concept was dropped, and the rest were (all but) forgotten.

 

[Chimera]

I thought this was a "Tolkein Estate" deal. Can't call them Balrogs, call them something else. Can't use the name "hobbit", call them something else. Can't call them Ents, etcetera, etcetera.

 

[Ankh-Morpork Guard]

I thought this was a "Tolkein Estate" deal. Can't call them Balrogs, call them something else. Can't use the name "hobbit", call them something else. Can't call them Ents, etcetera, etcetera.

It was...but I think its interesting that the change to Balor was actually something mythological on its own. Sure, it doesn't fit the creature perfectly, but still. It almost seems to me that its become Balor-->Balrog(Tolkien)-->Balrog(D&D)-Balor(D&D). Just interesting to me, really.

 

[WizarDru]

Balrog.... singular ... again there was only 1.

In OD&D, perhaps, but there were plenty of Balrogs in Tokien's world. The Silmarillion even mentions someone named Glorfindel (although not apparently the same one from LotR) who single-handedly defeated more than one (albeit not all at once). Durin's Bane (the Balrog of LotR) was one of the Balrogs that escaped the end of the second age.

 

[UltimaGabe]

If I'm not mistaken, didn't Tolkien get his ideas from D&D, not the other way around?

 

[shilsen]

If I'm not mistaken, didn't Tolkien get his ideas from D&D, not the other way around?

 

[Aust Diamondew]

I have heard of Balor from celtic mythology in name origin threads long ago.

 

[BOZ]

If I'm not mistaken, didn't Tolkien get his ideas from D&D, not the other way around?

given that, IIRC, he died in 1973... highly unlikely. and as gary would probably explain himself if he were healthy enough to be here, tolkien was hardly the sole (or even main) inspiration for the D&D style fantasy adventures.

 

[AFGNCAAP]

The word "Balrog" in Tolkien's Elvish (Sindarin, specifically) means "Demon of Might"; bal means "power" while rog means "demon."

I can't say for sure that the name form may or may not have been inspired a bit by Balor, but I wouldn't be surprised if it's just the end result of creating words from his invented language.

As for Gruumsh/Balor, & thus the orcs as Fomorians; that has a bit of a possibility. Then again, Gruumsh could be seen as a sort of Odin-figure (with his son as a Thor-like figure). Or, to take it to another extent, Tolkien's imagery sort of creeps into the orc pantheon as well (at least with the symbols): the Eye of Gruumsh can be compared to the Eye of Sauron; the symbol of the orcish death & disease god can be compared to the White Hand of Saruman. But then again, it's all about how much you want to read into things.

 

[T. Foster]

in OD&D there was only 1.

Where are you getting this? In vol. 2 all references are plural (e.g. "Balrogs are highly intelligent monsters with a magical nature...") and the No. Appearing is 1-6.

 

[kolikeos]

it is well known that the balor is taken from the lord of the ring where it is originly called a balarog.