Balor/Pit Fiend's Level Adjustment?

[Kallendbor]

Hey guys. A DM who runs an epic level game wants a friend and I to join the game. He says he wants us each to play a fiend of some sort, preferably a Balor or a Pit Fiend. (Perhaps maybe both!). We told him that we cant find a level adjustment for them, he told us to ask around. So, here I am. What level adjustments would you give a Pit Fiend and a Balor?

(P.S. I know the concept of such a PC is rather silly, but he seems pretty hell bent on it)

 

[Ogrork the Mighty]

On a related note, the fact that the PF and Balor don't have Level Adj. is pretty silly since it means that it's easier to have them as cohorts then it is to have other weaker demons/devils that do have level adjustments.

 

[Nifft]

Uh, Ogrork, they have an LA of "--", not "0". Consider the difference between a Con score of "--" and a Con score of "0" -- one is a construct or undead, and the other is just dead. LA -- means they are not intended to be played, or taken as cohorts.

Just eyeballing the Spell-Like Abilities, I'd have to give the Pit Fiend an LA +16, and the Balor an LA +17. The primary factors are their ability to use certain 8-9th level spells at will.

-- N

 

[Derulbaskul]

I think, too, that the LAs were left off any creature that would end up with a starting ECL of 21+.

Hmmm, I wonder if this means that there's going to be a Revised/Expanded Epic Level Handbook?

 

[reanjr]

Hey guys. A DM who runs an epic level game wants a friend and I to join the game. He says he wants us each to play a fiend of some sort, preferably a Balor or a Pit Fiend. (Perhaps maybe both!). We told him that we cant find a level adjustment for them, he told us to ask around. So, here I am. What level adjustments would you give a Pit Fiend and a Balor?

(P.S. I know the concept of such a PC is rather silly, but he seems pretty hell bent on it)

Balor

This is pretty tough to say. Once you get to that kind of level, judging the power of at will abilities for a PC is difficult. I'd say most of his abilities are fairly inline with a 20th level character.

The kicker is his at will Blashphemy and Power Word, Stun. Both are ultrapowerful and have no saves. For PCs the only limit to these spells in the number of times per day they can be cast. I'd say each of these effects should give a +3 Level Adjustment, AT LEAST. I'd put at +5 each or more, for a total of +10 Level Adjustment, giving the Balor an ECL of 30.

Pit Fiend

We're looking at pretty much the same issues with Pit Fiends. They've got the Blasphemy and the Power Word, Stun as well. I'd be tempted to boost their Level Adjustment up a little to +11 to reflect the fact that we're comparing it to an 18th level character as opposed to a 20th. This would give the Pit Fiend an ECL of 29, just shy of a balor.

------

There's a reason these guys aren't given Level Adjustments. They should stay monsters, in my opinion. I think a good idea to discuss with the DM would be removing the at will aspect of those two overkill abilities. Make 'em 3 times/day or something. That should balance them out a bit.

 

[reanjr]

I think, too, that the LAs were left off any creature that would end up with a starting ECL of 21+.

Hmmm, I wonder if this means that there's going to be a Revised/Expanded Epic Level Handbook?

First we need a revised Stronghold Builder's Guidebook and revised Enemies and Allies. Sheesh, don't rush things.

I wish I was kidding; I wouldn't put it past Wizards to put out that kind of crap. Especially after The Complete Cut-n-Paste (known in some circles as the Complete Divine).

 

[PallidPatience]

Pit Fiend: +19 just looking at it...

Balor: +18, again, just off the cuff...

You might want to consider looking a little more carefully just to be sure, and don't forget to add that to the amount of HD... some people do.

 

[reanjr]

Wow. People seem to really throw out high numbers. Maybe I'm just inexperienced in these matters (rarely really do high level stuff), but a 30th level character (which is what I ballparked them at) seems able to do all sorts of wacky, ridiculous things. It doesn't seem to be reasonable to expect them to be an almost 40th level character, even with Blasphemy at will. *shrug*. They'll generally be going up against 30 HD (or about) creatures/characters, so it doesn't even work against them. Power Word, Stun same situation for anything with alot of HP.

Mind you, I'm not saying anyone is necessarily wrong, just giving more insight into why I chose the numbers I did.

 

[rrealm]

I would guess that the ECL would be around 30 to 32.

One thing (among many) to consider is a balor's stats. Remember, the stats in a the MM are the stats for a good ol' plain 101 creature of its species. And it's lowest score is a 24. Pack on the special ablities and the at will abilities. Tack 290 hit points on too. But wait, that 31 constitution score is just average for his species. He might as well be the innkeeper in a balor run world where everyone is a balor. He certainly wouldn't want to go adventuring with his 'average' hit points. That being said, lets tack on another 80 hit points (the difference between a balor having a base of 10 in con before mods and having a base of 18 before mods) and that leaves you with "warrior - front line" balors with a whopping 370 hp. The ability to summon help, high SR, some intensive DR (how many people really run around with cold iron AND a good weapon?).... I could go on for a while but as a PC, I would eagerly take my ECL of 32 and enjoy destroying entire armys of holy rollers.

 

[Shallown]

Reanjr - I think the numbers aren't that high. The difference is imagine a party of Balor. Say 4 like an adventuring party. What would be the CR of something they Fought. CR for a Balor is what? 20 or so. That's for a single fight lasting from 4-10 rounds or so (just a guess) compare that to what they could do in 3-4 such fights in a day of dungeon diving with most their abilities being at Will. This adds up to one nasty character. I would like a Single 30thlevel character compete with a balor , in a head to head dungeon dive. The balor has no weakness and needs no real support from a party any other character just couldn't cut the mustard.

I think it would be fun to play a balor or pit fiend with a few levels of fighter to pick up some other sick feats and combos. Plus full out fit them with equipment hard to imagine the power level in my mind. Of course I haven't run epic yet but I have run Balor's in encounters several times and know just what they are capable of. Justthe use maghic device at +31 is scary in how they could self buff. Sick... sick.. sick.

I would say a ECL in 28-32 range is reasonable.

later