Balor/Pit Fiend's Level Adjustment?

[Ogrork the Mighty]

LA -- means they are not intended to be played, or taken as cohorts.
-- N

But can't you summon them with Planar Ally spells? IIRC, the Thaumaturgist can make a cohort out of a creature with Planar Ally spells, and the limits make it harder to get certain weaker demons/devils than a Pit Fiend or Balor. Maybe you just can't make them cohorts, but does it state that anywhere?

 

[Nifft]

But can't you summon them with Planar Ally spells? [...] Maybe you just can't make them cohorts, but does it state that anywhere?

You can summon a Pit Fiend using Greater Planar Ally, but never a Balor (20 HD).

The place that it says you can't make it a cohort is "LA: --" Don't let your PCs convince you that "--" means "0". It means "no".

Note that the MM only lists LAs for critters with total ECL =< 20. It would be a good Epic bonus feature for WotC to list all LAs for critters with ECL > 20... but don't hold your breath, ECLs at that level are tough to get right, and even tougher to play-test.

-- N

 

[nameless]

I played in a game (recently) with a group of 20th level characters, and a Balor on a ECL 30 progression. The Balor was woefully, disgustingly underpowered in this game. We revised it to ECL 26 or 27, I believe. I think that's probably a pretty good call. The Savage Species rules are fundamentally flawed in that they don't account for monster hit dice in any way.

And if anything, a Pit Fiend is probably a little less powerful than a Balor.

 

[DM-Rocco]

Here is a character ECL link. It can walk you through the basics of determining how to calculate the ECL of a creature, if you scroll down, they have most of the monsters from the books in there, and their ECL, which for a Balor is +29 and for a Pit Fiend is +26


Other demons are listed like this for comparison:

Demon:

• Cerebrillith (PsiHB), +21
• Dretch, +4
• Quasit, +8
• Succubus, +14
• Bebilith, +21
• Retriever, +13
• Vrock, +19
• Hezrou, +20
• Glabrezu, +21
• Nalfeshnee, +24
• Marilith, +22
• Balor, +29

Destrachan +10

Devil:

• Imp, +8
• Osyluth, +13
• Kyton, +12
• Hellcat, +13
• Barbazu, +13
• Erinyes, +13
• Hamatula, +14
• Cornugon, +22
• Gelugon, +25
• Pit Fiend, +26

Devourer, +16

Something to note about ECL for creatures, they are always listed with their level adjustment and monster levels from hit dice added together. An example of this is the Succubus, who has a ECL of 14, but only has a level adjustment of +6, that means that 8 of her ECLs are from monster levels or hit dice, which is reflected by her feat/skills/hitdice.

If your DM really wants you to play a Balor or pit fiend, but wants to give your characters a bit of flare, you could, as an example, take the Balor at a level adjustment of +9 and give him 20 levels in a PC class. Just make sure you figure out what is part of the racial bonuses and abilities (like supernatural abilities and ability score modifiers and spell like abilities) versus the monster class abilities (like hit dice/feats/skills).

To eliminate confusion, if the DM wants it, just play the Balor as is. However, I have played a Succubus with +6 level adjustment and 10 leves in Thrall Herder and 5 psion telepath, no monster levels in the past, and compared to other classes at the same level, she was fair. Granted, she had some really powerful ability scores, a +16 to CHR is very helpful, but her lack of a spell casting level to get over the SR hurdle and lack of PC class levels evened things out in the long run.

 

[Cheiromancer]

The Immortal's Handbook Appendix (released by Upper Krust) says that a Balor is the equivalent of a 33rd level character; a Pit Fiend is a level 32 character.