D&D 5E Balor vs Pit Fiend

C

CTurbo

Explorer
Who wins in a 1 on 1 showdown?

Ok that's not what I actually came to ask. I was looking through the MM at some devils and demons and I noticed that the Pit Fiend has a higher CR, but the Balor actually seems like a much tougher match for a general party to fight against. Maybe I am missing something. I want to use one of these guys in the future as the BBEG's champion. Of course the BBEG needs to be able to get away some how haha. I'm thinking about going with a Balor for now, but I dunno. The party is still too weak for either right now at level 7, but I'm expecting to add another player or two soon and would expect the party to probably be level ~9 by the time they get that far.
 

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C

CTurbo

Explorer
This actually brings up another interesting question. If they WERE in the same place at the same time, do you think they would be more likely to be friends or foes? Or maybe just simply leave each other alone? I could see having them fight over who gets to have/kill/enslave/torture the party... maybe have the players sneak away during the distraction. hmm...


Also, I think it's kind of funny that neither are immune to the frightened condition. It would be hilarious to see a Balor turn tail and run away scared from something! hahaha
 

Leatherhead

Leatherhead

Possibly a Idiot.
The Pit Fiend has far greater control options, 4 attacks per round, and the ability to shoot fireballs at will (handy when you can fly).

The Balor has far greater speed (including teleport), a whip attack that it can exploit for either synergy with it's flame aura or to pull people into puts, and explodes into a massive damage ball when it dies.

I'm almost entirely sure that either can reform in their respective home planes when destroyed, so getting away isn't exactly necessary if you want them to be reused.

And for the record, a Pit Fiend would win a 1v1. But in a match with summons, the Balor has a far greater chance.
 

A

Al2O3

Explorer
CTurbo said:
This actually brings up another interesting question. If they WERE in the same place at the same time, do you think they would be more likely to be friends or foes? Or maybe just simply leave each other alone? I could see having them fight over who gets to have/kill/enslave/torture the party... maybe have the players sneak away during the distraction. hmm...


Also, I think it's kind of funny that neither are immune to the frightened condition. It would be hilarious to see a Balor turn tail and run away scared from something! hahaha
Click to expand...
They would fight. A shepherd would fight a wolf among its sheep, and so a pit fiend would fight a balor.

A shepherd would probably also eat meat from time to time, and what meat is available...

To OP: A party without levels where full casters get 8th levels spells should probably not stay long enough to see the difference between a Balor and a Pit Fiend, unless it is a Pit Fiend and they want to make a deal (e.g. become warlocks).

If the fiend protects the BBEG the "bad evil guy" should be either as big as an archdevil or demon Prince (Out of the Abyss or Raise of Tiamat might have suitable stat blocks) or "Bad Evil Guy" enough to make a good bargain with such an entity.

Sent from my Nexus 6 using EN World mobile app
 

D

discosoc

First Post
A run a simulation for both over 40 rounds. Not because either would survive 40 rounds, but to get a good average damage per round, including crits.

Assumptions:
Everything hits
Balor could reliably hit 4 targets per round with the fire aura (might be conservative)
Pit Fiend didn't bother with Fireball since it's a DPR loss compared to just wading in and attacking.
No advanced tactics or anything, like teleporting. This is just to measure expected damage potential.

Balor:
CR 19
HP 262
Average DPR for all attacks is 141 (**Edit** this number is too high. I misread it as having 2 longsword attacks, when it should only have 1)

Pit Fiend:
CR 20
HP 300
Average DPR for all attacks is 123

Observations:
Both have incredible defenses with magic resistance and damage reductions. Both also have great mobility, although the Balor is both larger (Huge compared to Large) and flies faster. The Balor also has the teleport action of 120 feet, although with the way its fire aura works it's probably better off triggering OA's as it moves around. So far the Pit Fiend is looking weaker, but then we move on to the utility...

There are two things that I think push the Pit Fiend into being a harder fight. First, being able to cast fireball, hold monster, and wall of fire, means the it can better control the battlefield. I mean, your average fighter isn't going to be able to reliably make that DC 21 WIS save for hold monster, and the Pit Fiend is intelligent enough to know exactly who to target with that thing, and even being able to lock a character down for just 1 or 2 rounds, or forcing another character to spend their action freeing the fighter instead of attacking the Pit Fiend would make for a pretty effective tactic.

The other thing the Pit Fiend has going, and possibly the better one, is their bite attack. Every time it hits with that, it's also doing a potential 6d6 poison damage plus another 6d6 at the start of the target's turns and prevents healing while active. It's a DC 21 CON save to resist or remove, and poison is one of the easier types to deal with, but a good bite attack on the wizard or cleric could begin the steamroll.

All in all, I definitely think the Pit Fiend is a tougher fight. It's only 14% lower in standard damage, but has 14% more health and a whole lot more control.

The one big downside to the Pit Fiend, however, is that because it's a Large creature, it could feasibly fall victim to Beefy McFighter's grapple and shove tactic, which pretty much means game over for the fiend. So if you're looking to actually use it, make sure to give the Pit Fiend some breathing room up front and remember that it's smart enough to know that it won't easily win a grapple contest against Beefy McFighter.
 
Last edited:

D

discosoc

First Post
CTurbo said:
Also, I think it's kind of funny that neither are immune to the frightened condition. It would be hilarious to see a Balor turn tail and run away scared from something! hahaha
Click to expand...

Makes sense to me. Both Demon and Devil "cultures" are sort of glued together by fear.
 

M

Mirtek

Hero
CTurbo said:
This actually brings up another interesting question. If they WERE in the same place at the same time, do you think they would be more likely to be friends or foes? Or maybe just simply leave each other alone?
Click to expand...
in D&D demons&devils hate each others guts and are locked in an titanic war over the true Definition of evil
 


F

FormerlyHemlock

Hero
CTurbo said:
Who wins in a 1 on 1 showdown?

Ok that's not what I actually came to ask. I was looking through the MM at some devils and demons and I noticed that the Pit Fiend has a higher CR, but the Balor actually seems like a much tougher match for a general party to fight against. Maybe I am missing something. I want to use one of these guys in the future as the BBEG's champion. Of course the BBEG needs to be able to get away some how haha. I'm thinking about going with a Balor for now, but I dunno. The party is still too weak for either right now at level 7, but I'm expecting to add another player or two soon and would expect the party to probably be level ~9 by the time they get that far.
Click to expand...

Pit Fiend wins and it's not even close.

Pure math calculation:

Pit Fiend hits on a 5 and does 6d8+8+2d6+8 after immunities. DPR including crits is 65.13, takes about 4 rounds to kill the Balor.

Balor hits on a 5 and does 6d8+8+2d6+8 after immunities. DPR including crits is 41.70, takes about 7.2 rounds to kill the Pit Fiend.

Monte carlo sim: https://repl.it/EnFq/17

Typical sim results:
Benedict the Pit Fiend wins 100 out of 100 matches against Gargamontor the Balor, with 156.40 HP remaining (52% of total)

Example fight:

Code: 
Round #1:
Abnaxis the Balor is unfazed by fearsome Lucifer the Pit Fiend
Abnaxis the Balor does Multiattack
Roll: 15
Hit! Abnaxis the Balor slashes Lucifer the Pit Fiend: Lucifer the Pit Fiend takes 28 points of MagicalWeapon damage!
Lucifer the Pit Fiend takes 18 points of Lightning damage!
Roll: 12
Hit! Abnaxis the Balor whips Lucifer the Pit Fiend: Lucifer the Pit Fiend takes 19 points of MagicalWeapon damage!
Lucifer the Pit Fiend is immune to all 9 points of Fire damage
Lucifer the Pit Fiend does Multiattack
Roll: 2
Lucifer the Pit Fiend misses Abnaxis the Balor
Roll: 15
Hit! Lucifer the Pit Fiend claws Abnaxis the Balor: Abnaxis the Balor takes 16 points of MagicalWeapon damage!
Roll: 12
Hit! Lucifer the Pit Fiend smashes Abnaxis the Balor: Abnaxis the Balor takes 14 points of MagicalWeapon damage!
Abnaxis the Balor is immune to all 18 points of Fire damage
Roll: 5
Hit! Lucifer the Pit Fiend smacks Abnaxis the Balor: Abnaxis the Balor takes 26 points of MagicalWeapon damage!
Status after round #1:
Abnaxis the Balor: 206 HP (56 damage taken)
Lucifer the Pit Fiend: 235 HP (65 damage taken)
Round #2:
Abnaxis the Balor does Multiattack
Roll: 16
Hit! Abnaxis the Balor slashes Lucifer the Pit Fiend: Lucifer the Pit Fiend takes 18 points of MagicalWeapon damage!
Lucifer the Pit Fiend takes 16 points of Lightning damage!
Roll: 3
Abnaxis the Balor misses Lucifer the Pit Fiend
Lucifer the Pit Fiend does Multiattack
Roll: 15
Hit! Lucifer the Pit Fiend bites Abnaxis the Balor: Abnaxis the Balor takes 23 points of MagicalWeapon damage!
Roll: 1
Lucifer the Pit Fiend misses Abnaxis the Balor
Roll: 4
Lucifer the Pit Fiend misses Abnaxis the Balor
Roll: 6
Hit! Lucifer the Pit Fiend smacks Abnaxis the Balor: Abnaxis the Balor takes 28 points of MagicalWeapon damage!
Status after round #2:
Abnaxis the Balor: 155 HP (107 damage taken) ([OngoingDamage (Con,21,Unavoidable ({N = 6;
                                     DieSize = 6;
                                     Plus = 0;},Poison))])
Lucifer the Pit Fiend: 201 HP (99 damage taken)
Round #3:
Abnaxis the Balor is immune to all 24 points of Poison damage
Abnaxis the Balor does Multiattack
Roll: 13
Hit! Abnaxis the Balor slashes Lucifer the Pit Fiend: Lucifer the Pit Fiend takes 16 points of MagicalWeapon damage!
Lucifer the Pit Fiend takes 11 points of Lightning damage!
Roll: 6
Hit! Abnaxis the Balor whips Lucifer the Pit Fiend: Lucifer the Pit Fiend takes 15 points of MagicalWeapon damage!
Lucifer the Pit Fiend is immune to all 6 points of Fire damage
Lucifer the Pit Fiend does Multiattack
Roll: 7
Hit! Lucifer the Pit Fiend bites Abnaxis the Balor: Abnaxis the Balor takes 32 points of MagicalWeapon damage!
Roll: 10
Hit! Lucifer the Pit Fiend claws Abnaxis the Balor: Abnaxis the Balor takes 23 points of MagicalWeapon damage!
Roll: 4
Lucifer the Pit Fiend misses Abnaxis the Balor
Roll: 8
Hit! Lucifer the Pit Fiend smacks Abnaxis the Balor: Abnaxis the Balor takes 20 points of MagicalWeapon damage!
Status after round #3:
Abnaxis the Balor: 80 HP (182 damage taken) ([OngoingDamage (Con,21,Unavoidable ({N = 6;
                                     DieSize = 6;
                                     Plus = 0;},Poison))])
Lucifer the Pit Fiend: 159 HP (141 damage taken)
Round #4:
Abnaxis the Balor is immune to all 23 points of Poison damage
Abnaxis the Balor does Multiattack
Roll: 5
Hit! Abnaxis the Balor slashes Lucifer the Pit Fiend: Lucifer the Pit Fiend takes 22 points of MagicalWeapon damage!
Lucifer the Pit Fiend takes 6 points of Lightning damage!
Roll: 3
Abnaxis the Balor misses Lucifer the Pit Fiend
Lucifer the Pit Fiend does Multiattack
Roll: 1
Lucifer the Pit Fiend misses Abnaxis the Balor
Roll: 19
Hit! Lucifer the Pit Fiend claws Abnaxis the Balor: Abnaxis the Balor takes 13 points of MagicalWeapon damage!
Roll: 13
Hit! Lucifer the Pit Fiend smashes Abnaxis the Balor: Abnaxis the Balor takes 18 points of MagicalWeapon damage!
Abnaxis the Balor is immune to all 17 points of Fire damage
Roll: 10
Hit! Lucifer the Pit Fiend smacks Abnaxis the Balor: Abnaxis the Balor takes 24 points of MagicalWeapon damage!
Status after round #4:
Abnaxis the Balor: 25 HP (237 damage taken) ([OngoingDamage (Con,21,Unavoidable ({N = 6;
                                     DieSize = 6;
                                     Plus = 0;},Poison))])
Lucifer the Pit Fiend: 131 HP (169 damage taken)
Round #5:
Abnaxis the Balor is immune to all 17 points of Poison damage
Abnaxis the Balor does Multiattack
Roll: 8
Hit! Abnaxis the Balor slashes Lucifer the Pit Fiend: Lucifer the Pit Fiend takes 19 points of MagicalWeapon damage!
Lucifer the Pit Fiend takes 16 points of Lightning damage!
Roll: 16
Hit! Abnaxis the Balor whips Lucifer the Pit Fiend: Lucifer the Pit Fiend takes 13 points of MagicalWeapon damage!
Lucifer the Pit Fiend is immune to all 9 points of Fire damage
Lucifer the Pit Fiend does Multiattack
Roll: 11
Hit! Lucifer the Pit Fiend bites Abnaxis the Balor: Abnaxis the Balor takes 27 points of MagicalWeapon damage!
Roll: 7
Hit! Lucifer the Pit Fiend claws Abnaxis the Balor: Abnaxis the Balor takes 17 points of MagicalWeapon damage!
Roll: 12
Hit! Lucifer the Pit Fiend smashes Abnaxis the Balor: Abnaxis the Balor takes 18 points of MagicalWeapon damage!
Abnaxis the Balor is immune to all 20 points of Fire damage
Roll: 17
Hit! Lucifer the Pit Fiend smacks Abnaxis the Balor: Abnaxis the Balor takes 27 points of MagicalWeapon damage!
Status after round #5:
Abnaxis the Balor: -64 HP (326 damage taken) ([OngoingDamage (Con,21,Unavoidable ({N = 6;
                                     DieSize = 6;
                                     Plus = 0;},Poison))])
Lucifer the Pit Fiend: 83 HP (217 damage taken)
 

F

FormerlyHemlock

Hero
Also, in case you're curious, against two 9th level melee Champions with +1 swords and three 9th level archer Champions with +1 bows, the Pit Fiend wins approximately 90% of the matches, and the Balor wins approximately 0%. At best, the Balor can take down one or two PCs and then explode in a big ball of fire, maybe insta-killing another PC who is low on HP. That probably makes the Balor the right choice for a 9th level group for most players, unless your players really thrive on challenge.

I was using these stats:

Code: 
// champion9b was generated using PHB standard array and variant human Fighter 5 with Dueling Style and plate armor + shield + longsword +1 and Heavy Armor Master feat
let champion9b() = Combatant(nameOf humanNames "Champion", (20, 14, 14, 10, 11, 8, 76), AC=18,
                            Traits=[HeavyArmorMaster; ActionSurge; AthleticsProficient; ImprovedCritical], Prof = +4,
                            Actions = [Action.Create("Melee attack",
                                            Attack [
                                                Attack.CreateMagic "slashes" 10 [DieRoll.Create(1, 8, 6)]
                                                Attack.CreateMagic "slashes" 10 [DieRoll.Create(1, 8, 6)]
                                                ])
                                       ],
                            BonusActions = [
                                Action.Create("Second Wind", Healing (DieRoll.Create(1, 10, 9)), 1)
                            ])
// archer9b was generated using PHB standard array and variant human Fighter 5 with Archery Style and studded leather and longbow +1 and Sharpshooter feat
let archer9b() = Combatant(nameOf humanNames "Archer", (14, 20, 14, 10, 12, 8, 76), AC=17, Prof = +4,
                            Traits=[ActionSurge; AthleticsProficient; ImprovedCritical],
                            Actions = [Action.Create("Shoot",
                                            Attack [
                                                Attack.BestOf(Attack.CreateMagic "shoots" 12 [DieRoll.Create(1, 8, 6)], Attack.CreateMagic "headshots" 7 [DieRoll.Create(1, 8, 16)])
                                                Attack.BestOf(Attack.CreateMagic "shoots" 12 [DieRoll.Create(1, 8, 6)], Attack.CreateMagic "headshots" 7 [DieRoll.Create(1, 8, 16)])
                                                ])
                                        ],
                            BonusActions = [
                                Action.Create("Second Wind", Healing (DieRoll.Create(1, 10, 9)), 1)
                            ])

let balor() = Combatant(nameOf ["Kolor"; "Koloss"; "Zentradi"; "Abnaxis"; "Gargamontor"] "Balor", (26, 15, 22, 20, 16, 22, 262), Prof = +6, SaveProficiencies=[Str;Wis;Con;Cha],
                        AC = 19, Resists = [Lightning; Cold; Weapon], Immunities = [Fire; Poison],
                        Traits = [MagicResistant],
                        Actions = [
                            Action.Create("Multiattack",
                                Attack [
                                    Attack.CreateDualType "slashes" 14 ([DieRoll.Create(3,8,8)], MagicalWeapon) ([DieRoll.Create(3,8)], Lightning)
                                    Attack.CreateDualType "whips" 14 ([DieRoll.Create(2,6,8)], MagicalWeapon) ([DieRoll.Create(3,6)], Fire)
                                ])
                        ])

let pitFiend() = Combatant(nameOf ["Abariel";"Benetor";"Benedict";"Imariel";"Abbadon";"Lucifer"] "Pit Fiend", (26, 14, 24, 22, 18, 24, 300), Prof = +6, SaveProficiencies=[Dex;Con;Wis],
                        AC = 19, Resists = [Cold; Weapon], Immunities = [Fire; Poison],
                        Traits = [MagicResistant;FearAura(21)],
                        Actions = [
                            Action.Create("Multiattack",
                                Attack [
                                    Attack.CreateMagicWithRider "bites" 14 [DieRoll.Create(4, 6, 8)] (OngoingDamage(Con, 21, Unavoidable(DieRoll.Create(6, 6), Poison)))
                                    Attack.CreateMagic "claws" 14 [DieRoll.Create(2, 8, 8)]
                                    Attack.CreateDualType "smashes" 14 ([DieRoll.Create(2, 8, 8)], MagicalWeapon) ([DieRoll.Create(6,6)], Fire)
                                    Attack.CreateMagic "smacks" 14 [DieRoll.Create(3, 10, 8)]
                                ])
                        ])

Example fight:

Code: 
Round #1:
Rupert Grint the Archer does Shoot
Roll: 19
CRITICAL HIT! Rupert Grint the Archer headshots Zentradi the Balor: Zentradi the Balor takes 23 points of MagicalWeapon damage!
Roll: 19
CRITICAL HIT! Rupert Grint the Archer headshots Zentradi the Balor: Zentradi the Balor takes 24 points of MagicalWeapon damage!
ACTION SURGE!!
Rupert Grint the Archer does Shoot
Roll: 16
Hit! Rupert Grint the Archer headshots Zentradi the Balor: Zentradi the Balor takes 21 points of MagicalWeapon damage!
Roll: 8
Rupert Grint the Archer misses Zentradi the Balor
Graal Tiger the Archer does Shoot
Roll: 7
Graal Tiger the Archer misses Zentradi the Balor
Roll: 13
Hit! Graal Tiger the Archer headshots Zentradi the Balor: Zentradi the Balor takes 18 points of MagicalWeapon damage!
ACTION SURGE!!
Graal Tiger the Archer does Shoot
Roll: 16
Hit! Graal Tiger the Archer headshots Zentradi the Balor: Zentradi the Balor takes 18 points of MagicalWeapon damage!
Roll: 8
Graal Tiger the Archer misses Zentradi the Balor
Zentradi the Balor does Multiattack
Roll: 10
Hit! Zentradi the Balor slashes Elias the Champion: Elias the Champion takes 19 points of MagicalWeapon damage!
Elias the Champion takes 14 points of Lightning damage!
Roll: 9
Hit! Zentradi the Balor whips Elias the Champion: Elias the Champion takes 18 points of MagicalWeapon damage!
Elias the Champion takes 17 points of Fire damage!
Elias the Champion does Melee attack
Roll: 2
Elias the Champion misses Zentradi the Balor
Roll: 15
Hit! Elias the Champion slashes Zentradi the Balor: Zentradi the Balor takes 12 points of MagicalWeapon damage!
ACTION SURGE!!
Elias the Champion does Melee attack
Roll: 2
Elias the Champion misses Zentradi the Balor
Roll: 3
Elias the Champion misses Zentradi the Balor
Elias the Champion does Second Wind
John the Archer does Shoot
Roll: 11
John the Archer misses Zentradi the Balor
Roll: 14
Hit! John the Archer headshots Zentradi the Balor: Zentradi the Balor takes 17 points of MagicalWeapon damage!
ACTION SURGE!!
John the Archer does Shoot
Roll: 8
John the Archer misses Zentradi the Balor
Roll: 5
John the Archer misses Zentradi the Balor
Rupert Grint the Champion does Melee attack
Roll: 17
Hit! Rupert Grint the Champion slashes Zentradi the Balor: Zentradi the Balor takes 9 points of MagicalWeapon damage!
Roll: 1
Rupert Grint the Champion misses Zentradi the Balor
ACTION SURGE!!
Rupert Grint the Champion does Melee attack
Roll: 10
Hit! Rupert Grint the Champion slashes Zentradi the Balor: Zentradi the Balor takes 8 points of MagicalWeapon damage!
Roll: 13
Hit! Rupert Grint the Champion slashes Zentradi the Balor: Zentradi the Balor takes 10 points of MagicalWeapon damage!
Status after round #1:
Zentradi the Balor: 102 HP (160 damage taken)
Elias the Champion: 19 HP (57 damage taken)
Rupert Grint the Champion: 76 HP (0 damage taken)
Graal Tiger the Archer: 76 HP (0 damage taken)
Rupert Grint the Archer: 76 HP (0 damage taken)
John the Archer: 76 HP (0 damage taken)
Round #2:
Rupert Grint the Archer does Shoot
Roll: 17
Hit! Rupert Grint the Archer headshots Zentradi the Balor: Zentradi the Balor takes 20 points of MagicalWeapon damage!
Roll: 16
Hit! Rupert Grint the Archer headshots Zentradi the Balor: Zentradi the Balor takes 24 points of MagicalWeapon damage!
Graal Tiger the Archer does Shoot
Roll: 8
Graal Tiger the Archer misses Zentradi the Balor
Roll: 12
Hit! Graal Tiger the Archer headshots Zentradi the Balor: Zentradi the Balor takes 19 points of MagicalWeapon damage!
Zentradi the Balor does Multiattack
Roll: 5
Hit! Zentradi the Balor slashes Elias the Champion: Elias the Champion takes 20 points of MagicalWeapon damage!
Elias the Champion takes 18 points of Lightning damage!
Roll: 18
Hit! Zentradi the Balor whips Elias the Champion: Elias the Champion takes 16 points of MagicalWeapon damage!
Elias the Champion takes 13 points of Fire damage!
John the Archer does Shoot
Roll: 3
John the Archer misses Zentradi the Balor
Roll: 12
Hit! John the Archer headshots Zentradi the Balor: Zentradi the Balor takes 22 points of MagicalWeapon damage!
Rupert Grint the Champion does Melee attack
Roll: 14
Hit! Rupert Grint the Champion slashes Zentradi the Balor: Zentradi the Balor takes 10 points of MagicalWeapon damage!
Roll: 14
Hit! Rupert Grint the Champion slashes Zentradi the Balor: Zentradi the Balor takes 9 points of MagicalWeapon damage!
Status after round #2:
Zentradi the Balor: -2 HP (264 damage taken)
Elias the Champion: -48 HP (124 damage taken)
Rupert Grint the Champion: 76 HP (0 damage taken)
Graal Tiger the Archer: 76 HP (0 damage taken)
Rupert Grint the Archer: 76 HP (0 damage taken)
John the Archer: 76 HP (0 damage taken)
Abnaxis the Balor wins 0 out of 100 matches against Kitty the Champion and Rupert Grint the Champion and Platt the Archer and Elias the Archer and Robin Hood the Archer, with 0.00 HP remaining (0% of total)

Edit: I see I forgot about the Balor's flame aura, which would have killed the melee Champions slightly quicker--but the bulk of the damage is being done by the archers anyway, and they may very well get off a couple of shots before the Balor can close. The smart strategy for the melee champions might be to stay out of its flame aura (note that since the Balor's attacks both have more than 5' range, it can't use opportunity attacks to keep enemies within the flame aura) while Dodging or Helping the Sharpshooters do damage. Depends on the situation though.
 
Last edited:

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