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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Ashrym" data-source="post: 7836838" data-attributes="member: 6750235">I don't consider them off stats.  I consider them non-combat stats.  The entire premise of the niche is a general bonus on more checks instead of the earlier bigger bonus.DC 20 persuasion auto success is fun.  How the bonuses get there directly impacts what levels it becomes available.  That 14 starting CHA means it's there at 10th level with expertise.  The wood elf example that has 10 CHA gets the same option but not until 13th level. The wood elf example with 14 CHA can do the same thing at the same time.I would point out going wood elf gives only penalties to the abilities scores in comparison at this point.  These are minor in STR and INT but they still exist.  Matching the ability score spread was impossible for the elf and ended up with minor concessions.  Technically the human auto-succeeds DC20 at investigation at 10th level if he's taken expertise in it as well but that can be a big "if".  That only matters if expertise is taken in enough different ability score attributes the elf couldn't have done the same thing.  Stealth, perception, investigation, and persuasion I suppose.  I would concede that's certainly not guaranteed and stops mattering later anyway.  They both auto-succeed DC15 investigation with just proficiency.Darkvision, movement, mask of the wild and a bonus skill proficiency.  Most of those are minor in a heavy social campaign but they do look good to have.  The important thing is I can carry more treasure so I'm calling them pretty close.  ;-)edit: removed basic math brain fart</blockquote>

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