Ban Variant-Human! Impact?

Variant Human Impact

1. Combat feats are generally strong in combination with high stat and multiple combat feats. Variant human greatly speeds up that process. A variant human fighter for example can have all his offensive elements by level 8. A variant human Paladin gets there at level 12. However, if variant human is banned then the fighter takes till level 12 and the paladin till level 16. Those are the levels that most groups won't reach in practice.

2. Other combat feats are used to increase concentration saves. Caster's tend to love these so long as they get them without impacting their stat increases. Without variant human that would generally put casters around level 12 before we would see these kinds of concentration boosting combat feats.

3. Defensive feats like Heavy Armor master aren't nearly as good if you get it near tier 2 as opposed to the start of tier 1.

4. Feats like healer and inspiring leader also are not nearly as good if you must wait till level 4 and give up a primary ASI to obtain them.

In short - I think most practical feat issues are because Variant Human exists!
 

Salthorae

Imperial Mountain Dew Taster
Very little impact other than the number of humans in a game would probably drop significantly.

I think standard is pretty “meh”, so I usually give them two skill proficiencies like half-elves get. Makes sense to me, otherwise why do half-elves get two? They should inherit something from their human side.
 

pkt77242

Explorer
According to point 1, you want to make it so that the player can’t have all of his offensive elements until a level that you believe they won’t reach in practice? Am I missing something?

Also without the variant human, humans are kind of blah. The feat helps offset not having dark vision.
 

pkt77242

Explorer
I don’t think that I have ever seen a standard human in play. I agree that the number of humans in play will plummet.

Very little impact other than the number of humans in a game would probably drop significantly.

I think standard is pretty “meh”, so I usually give them two skill proficiencies like half-elves get. Makes sense to me, otherwise why do half-elves get two? They should inherit something from their human side.
 
According to point 1, you want to make it so that the player can’t have all of his offensive elements until a level that you believe they won’t reach in practice? Am I missing something?

Also without the variant human, humans are kind of blah. The feat helps offset not having dark vision.
Not having dark vision is a minor inconvenience. A free feat is huge.
 
Very little impact other than the number of humans in a game would probably drop significantly.

I think standard is pretty “meh”, so I usually give them two skill proficiencies like half-elves get. Makes sense to me, otherwise why do half-elves get two? They should inherit something from their human side.
I agree standard human could use a little more in most games. They can still turn out spectacularly good when rolling for stats though. Not so much with standard array or point buy IMO.
 

dnd4vr

Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious!
We haven't had any issue with Human Variants in our games, but if you find it is too much then grant something else as a variant instead. IMO the +1 to all stats is very meh. Or simply remove them, they are a variant rule after all.

FYI, in our games everyone starts level 1 with a feat, the human variant gets two. Granted the way we use multiclassing and other rules, our game is high-powered at lower levels, but this is intentional so new players can get the feel for more powerful features without having to wait until higher levels we might not actually even play to...
 

dnd4vr

Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious!
Another option for the variant human is instead of a free feat, give a short list of feats instead. We have a human variant with a feature called Incredible Determination, which grants the character proficiency in one saving throw.
 

jgsugden

Adventurer
Nearly everyone calls the human variant feat 'Free'. Drop out the feat and the human variant gets: +1 to two ability scores and a skill. That is faaaaaaaaaar less than any other race.

Imagine there was a feat that gave you +1 to dexterity, the ability to double move once per combat, darkvision, natural weapons and a skill proficiency. That would be a very competitive feat for non-great weapon PCs. That is what a tabaxi gets in place of the variant human feat.

As we can see, there is a real cost. It allows them to be better at certain things than other races at a low level, but that is intentional. They want the humans to be the adaptable and strong race. They want them to be amongst the most common races for PCs, if not the most common.

The flexibility and lack of balance in the feats makes the human variant a strong choice in you're trying to optimize, but it is not a race that gets a free feat. It pays dearly for it.
 

Gladius Legis

Adventurer
The Human really needed to be designed as a happy medium between the Variant (too good) and the Standard (typically sub-par).

I think giving Humans two floating +2s and two bonus skill proficiencies hits that happy medium pretty effectively. If a feat is worth a +2 to a stat then the floating +2s are the same as the +1s and the feat math-wise.
 

Mistwell

Hero
In a game where combat is less of a component than what's usually considered the norm, the non-variant human is pretty good. Having all your ability scores increase by one makes for a really well rounded PC. Particularly if you rolled a lot of odd-numbered ability scores and it rounds them all up to even.
 

dnd4vr

Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious!
The Human really needed to be designed as a happy medium between the Variant (too good) and the Standard (typically sub-par).

I think giving Humans two floating +2s and two bonus skill proficiencies hits that happy medium pretty effectively. If a feat is worth a +2 to a stat then the floating +2s are the same as the +1s and the feat math-wise.
Granting them the additional skill proficiency does help as well. Like others, I did a comparison of the races and the human variant falls towards the higher end of the middle, depending on just how much weight you put on the feat.

Compared to the half-elf (the most broken race IMO), it is still a bit less.
Half-elf
  • +2 CHA, 2x +1 ASI
  • two skills
  • darkvision
  • fey ancestry
  • long life
  • Common, Elven, +1 lang
Human (above option)
  • 2x +2 ASI
  • two skills
  • Common +1 lang
Is the ability to float one of the +2 ASI worth darkvision, fey ancestry, long life, and an extra language? Probably not IMO. We ended up keeping the half-elf as is, and boosting all the other races to match it in various ways.
 
I'm not seeing much of a rational argument here. My feeling is that VHuman is obviously better than normal human in most cases, but is only competitive with other races, not superior, and if a Feat at level 1 is "breaking the game" for you, which you appear to be claiming it is, I suspect the issue isn't really VHuman at all.

Further, this is subtext, I admit, but I get the feeling you're rolling for stats. If so, all your balance-based arguments should be summarily rejected, for what I hope are obvious reasons. Rolling for stats makes several races better and VHumans are one of them - not just because of the Feat but because it accompanies two +2s which go wherever you want them.

That said, banning them will just lead to the same players picking things like Half-Elf, so I don't think the terrible balance problems you seem to fear will just go away.
 
We haven't had any issue with Human Variants in our games, but if you find it is too much then grant something else as a variant instead. IMO the +1 to all stats is very meh. Or simply remove them, they are a variant rule after all.

FYI, in our games everyone starts level 1 with a feat, the human variant gets two. Granted the way we use multiclassing and other rules, our game is high-powered at lower levels, but this is intentional so new players can get the feel for more powerful features without having to wait until higher levels we might not actually even play to...
People say things like this all the time - but sometimes it's the truth and sometimes they just haven't analyzed their games enough to really understand what's occurring.
 
I'm not seeing much of a rational argument here. My feeling is that VHuman is obviously better than normal human in most cases, but is only competitive with other races, not superior, and if a Feat at level 1 is "breaking the game" for you, which you appear to be claiming it is, I suspect the issue isn't really VHuman at all.
I never said anything broke the game - nice strawman

Further, this is subtext, I admit, but I get the feeling you're rolling for stats. If so, all your balance-based arguments should be summarily rejected, for what I hope are obvious reasons. Rolling for stats makes several races better and VHumans are one of them - not just because of the Feat but because it accompanies two +2s which go wherever you want them.
This thread, nor my thoughts on the topic are limited to rolling for stats.

That said, banning them will just lead to the same players picking things like Half-Elf, so I don't think the terrible balance problems you seem to fear will just go away.
Since you've seemed to have totally missed the point of this thread - I'm saying starting with a feat at level 1 is too much because:

1. It doesn't cost an ASI that could be boosting your main stat
2. Feat effects at low levels are relatively stronger than they are at higher levels.
 
The Human really needed to be designed as a happy medium between the Variant (too good) and the Standard (typically sub-par).

I think giving Humans two floating +2s and two bonus skill proficiencies hits that happy medium pretty effectively. If a feat is worth a +2 to a stat then the floating +2s are the same as the +1s and the feat math-wise.
I really like this change!
 

Salthorae

Imperial Mountain Dew Taster
In a game where combat is less of a component than what's usually considered the norm, the non-variant human is pretty good. Having all your ability scores increase by one makes for a really well rounded PC. Particularly if you rolled a lot of odd-numbered ability scores and it rounds them all up to even.
Only time I’ve ever played Standard Human was when I rolled 5 odd stats. With point buy or standard array just doesn’t make sense when every other race option has so many fun things and standard gets... +1’s
 
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